Omosako Shiro Utsuri - Pick one

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond I am starting to wonder if we are allowing sex to trump our choices in selecting from a group of koi where it won't make a fundamental difference.

Depends. What are you trying to achieve?

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond Would anyone change their mind about choice C if you "knew" it was likely to finish in 1 year and A was likely to finish in 2?

Depends. What are you trying to achieve?

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond Hate to be a nag here, but I am trying to learn about selection and I am wondering if we are applying the principle of female supremacy in a situation where it does not have practical application.

Depends. What are you trying to achieve?

Carl, the problem isn't that you ask too many questions but rather that you fail to provide the requisite situational parameters that constitute the framework within which such decisions can and should be made.

We can craft situations in which each and every one of your above questions can be answered both ways.

'Cause it depends.

[cppond]

Don,

Understood, but I am not really trying to get a specific yes or no answer, I am trrying to provoke some thought and discussion in order to learn how and when it depends.

For instance, if we select one koi over another based largely on the fact that it is female, doesn't that choice presuppose that the female will attain a certain size and not finish before it does? Shouldn't we test that presumption with a direct evaluation of that aspect of the choice? In other words, can this koi can reasonably be expected to attain the size of 24 inches AND finish at that point?

Choosing a female over a male presumes facts that may be contradicted by other things about the koi that are even more obvious than its sex, such as the fact that it has little chance of attaining that size, and is likely to finish well before it gets to that point, even if it does attain that size.

I think the reason that some may pass on any of these three koi is that they may have concluded that none of them will finish at a large size. If that is a correct presumption, then you have to evaluate your choice based on other factors. For instance, if you conclude that the female will finish at 12 inches and A will finish at 18 inches, is the fact that C is a female still that important to those that chose C?

Bear in mind, it's all theory for me. I am still at the beginning.

[KoiCop]

Carl . . .

At the risk of beating a dead horse (not to mention hijacking Wayne's thread), I think you're both assuming facts not in evidence and confusing/conflating the terms 'size,' 'length' and 'finish.' So please -- double check your definitions.

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond For instance, if we select one koi over another based largely on the fact that it is female, doesn't that choice presuppose that the female will attain a certain size and not finish before it does?

No. Presuppose nothing. Length and finish are neither directly nor indirectly proportional; both have a genetic component; both can be effected by the conditions in which the koi is grown, positively and negatively; in any case, neither is knowable with certitude.

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond Shouldn't we test that presumption with a direct evaluation of that aspect of the choice? In other words, can this koi can reasonably be expected to attain the size of 24 inches AND finish at that point?

No. Presume nothing. All of these koi can and should be 'finished' for show purposes relatively soon -- long before their maximum length is attained, whatever that length might turn out to be.

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond Choosing a female over a male presumes facts that may be contradicted by other things about the koi that are even more obvious than its sex, such as the fact that it has little chance of attaining that size, and is likely to finish well before it gets to that point, even if it does attain that size.

Again, there is no relationship between length and finish. Some koi finish early, some finish late and some never finish at all. On the other hand, koi are indeterminate growers; under advantageous conditions growth can continue long after finish has come and gone.

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond I think the reason that some may pass on any of these three koi is that they may have concluded that none of them will finish at a large size. If that is a correct presumption, then you have to evaluate your choice based on other factors. For instance, if you conclude that the female will finish at 12 inches and A will finish at 18 inches, is the fact that C is a female still that important to those that chose C?

For me, yes. Typical female conformation should surpass that of a typical male regardless of their respective lengths at maturity.

And for a good example of "it all depends," see JR's post on this thread's incarnation over on Koishack.

[MikeM]

CP: Don has given some excellent pointers. To add to the mix of "what are you trying to achieve" thoughts, everything you learn has to be put through the test of personal circumstances. For most koikeepers in the U.S., it is a waste to invest in a koi with the genetics to grow to 34". They do not have ponds that can support the genes. Male koi are excellent choices for those with smallish ponds. In my case, I prefer to get females because I have primarily females. I don't want them getting bumped around during spawning. I have a couple of males who've been with me several years, and I've gotten too attached to them to move them on. As long as they do not get rough with the ladies, they've got a home. ... Personal factors are important. Koikeeping is all about enjoying yourself.

[cppond]

Well, I read JR's post on KS and I am not entirely clear on which koi he "preferred," but it seems as if he thinks C has a shelf life of about 6 months or more, and that A wins today, and probably won't even finish until it gets between 15 and 20 inches. If I interpreted his statements correctly, the fact that C may be female gives it little to no advantage over A in his opinion?

Did I understand JR correctly? If JR would shoot to finish C in six months, presumably that is the best he thinks can be gotten out of C? But A wins today and might not even be finished until it hits 20 inches? So other than wanting females for whatever purpose, does C really have an advantage over A because it is female?

Iam hoping that in another year I will understand all of this a little better.

[koiczar]

Wayne

Thanks for you patience while we try to help Carl out here.

Carl

Don has been trying to tell you and so has Mike M, it all depends on YOUR INDIVIDUAL CIRCUMSTANCES. I don't happen to agree with the statement that "C" will finish in six months. I think it's a longer term project (as most females USUALLY are). JR stated that A has the best chance to finish at 16-20". It doesn't matter to some as MikeM pointed out, he's simply interested in females. He has the pond to grow them large enough to allow the female to mature with proper body conformation. Some don't have that advantage, so, as mentioned, those with a smaller pond would benefit from males. A hobbyist with a small pond usually does a female koi an injustice. The fish usually are not able to reach their full potential.

The answer to this next question will hopefully allow us to help you further in your endeavors to learn about fish. Carl, HOW BIG IS YOUR POND?

Mike

[PapaBear]

I like the "purpose driven" tack this thread has taken, as it may well benefit Wayne as well as Carl (and a few more of us as well).
For myself, females would get preference for 2 reasons. Our pond is not huge by any means, but adequate for decent body building with the good currents our layout provides. That fact coupled with the "shelf life" of the female finish vs. male makes females my preference. The general tendency of males to finish early, hard, and then fade away, diminishes their appeal. Females on the other hand tend to finish more slowly, softer, and hold their finish longer. I realize those are very generic and overgeneralizations, but it is the basic tendency, and it also presupposes good water quality, etc...
If instant gratification is the goal, 15-16" males would probably be a better choice, especially if the pond is on the small side.
That being said, C is still the one I would go for.

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear I like the "purpose driven" tack this thread has taken, as it may well benefit Wayne as well as Carl (and a few more of us as well). For myself, females would get preference for 2 reasons. Our pond is not huge by any means, but adequate for decent body building with the good currents our layout provides. That fact coupled with the "shelf life" of the female finish vs. male makes females my preference. The general tendency of males to finish early, hard, and then fade away, diminishes their appeal. Females on the other hand tend to finish more slowly, softer, and hold their finish longer. I realize those are very generic and overgeneralizations, but it is the basic tendency, and it also presupposes good water quality, etc... If instant gratification is the goal, 15-16" males would probably be a better choice, especially if the pond is on the small side. That being said, C is still the one I would go for.

Thanks, Larry. I had not considered the question of shelf life after finishing. I didn't even know that was a purported difference between the sexes. That's precisely the type of information I was trying to elicit.

[Super Kindai]

Still long way to go.....

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by Super Kindai Still long way to go.....

Explains why you call yourself "Super Kindai"!! LOL

Beautiful Showa. Who is the breeder? What were the age progression of the photos?

Mike