Omosako Shiro Utsuri - Pick one

[Ronin-Koi]

Hello Everyone.
This has been a very interesting thread, and I learned alot from those that were willing to share their knowledge and thoughts. As for a question that came up, yes, all three koi are at the same price. My original intention when I started this thread, was that I had decided which koi I liked better (Koi A, the larger one, which was a safer bet to me in terms of pattern, sumi, size, motoguro, etc.), but I thought it would be educational to see what everyone else thought.

With the very active discussion and the polar views as to A or C being better in the long term, and the strong opinion that A may be male and C may be female, and that they may or may not catch up to each other and other larger koi of this age,... I can't help but want to see the end results myself! So even though it was never my intention to do a "grow-out" or growth comparison experiment, I will be purchasing both A and C and will track their progress for all to see. So I will be joining JNorth in doing a study on Omosakoi shiro utsuri, except my study will be with just two koi that are very different from each other.

Also, once I get the fish, I will examine and end the controversy about koi A's pecs being skinny and pointy. I agree with Steve C. in that I think it is coincidental that all the photos have koi A in the "braking" position in the viewing bowl, so the pecs are slanted down.

Assuming I have the skills to keep both fish alive, in a couple of years, we will see together how these Omosako shiro utsuri turn out. I am also interested in seeing if Mike C. is correct in saying that these are all low grade culls not appropriate for a koi pond. I am hopeful at least that half of you are correct and either A or C turn out nice.

If anyone wants the B koi to join in on this adventure, let me know. I really don't have room for all three koi. Also, 3 would have added too much black and white to my limited koi herd right now..

Best Wishes,
- Wayne, will have to make room for one more fish that he didn't plan on.

[MikeM]

Wonderful! ... Be sure to prove everyone wrong about something.

[KoiCop]

Wayne . . .

What an awesome move on your part. Thanks!

I'm sure the members of the various koi boards that enjoyed this thread so much will be looking forward to sharing in what you learn. I know I will.

[KoiCop]

Carl . . .

I read JR's post differently. Very differently.

Rather that trying to parse his words and their meaning, I've pasted your post over on theShack hoping the man himself will clarify.

[Super Kindai]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Explains why you call yourself "Super Kindai"!! LOL Beautiful Showa. Who is the breeder? What were the age progression of the photos? Mike

Hello, Mike.
One of the most improving variety during past 10 years is Showa ( Yes, Uturi & Goshiki too).
and it has become so popluar among hobbyist in Japan.
What I am looking for from it is Super Kindai Showa Yonsyoku...

The photos is Takeda Showa and it's from Nisai to Gosai.

[KoiCop]

For those who haven't seen JR's response to Carl's summary over on theShack, here goes (and let's hope it helps clarify some of the points we've been discussing):

KoiCop:
JR . . .

A newbie read your post crystal balling shiros A & C (here on theShack) and posted this interpretation of what they thought you said (over on 'Bito).

Since his read and mine differ significantly, I thought I'd bring it back over here for you to clarify as you wish.

Thanking you in advance, Don [Carl's post not repeated. DPC]

JR:
Hi. Its that 'now vs. for the future' thing again. As I mentioned people are all over the map in what they are judging for in this exercise.
I see in C a fish that is lagging the assumed siblings. and I'm neutral on it's sex. Females do not automatically win koi shows in the small sizes! To the contrary! Males tend to dominate the small sizes as they finish quicker and have brighter colors as a general rule in this size range. As Steve pointed out, there is not a lot of difference in conformation in these sizes. But there are indications of early maturing. the body is 'normal' on fish A. It is also the most finished fish and in these size ranges, finished pattern and color are more important that body ( unless the body is too thin for even a male or too chubby ( as in stunted).
So those picking C are picking it because it 'looks female' ( almost meaningless at this age) and because it appears to have a good pattern under it's skin ( a future trait). But it has no pattern TODAY!
A is a normal body, finished sumi and good skin. By the way, head yellow in baby and young fish is tolerated as a juvenile trait. Not the best thing but always put in context based on age and sex.

To provide perspective, here is a KILLER finished super star baby koi- It will most likely be crap as an adult and certainly will never be a contender for adult GC. Yet there isn't a show in the land that would not give this fish highest honors in the baby ranks. It's body is normal - not robust. And it's future is bleak, but it's finished pattern and color are magnificant! Am I making the point? JR [picture not brought over. DPC]

JR:
found a picture of a baby All Japan winner in 'shiro'. So what made this fish win over scores of others? Is it the fact that it is female? Not hardly, this is 99% likely a male. Is it the pattern? Well yes, but more because it is finished and up and not just because of placement ( although this fish has both finish and placement!). This is a finished fish on the day and at a point in development that likely represents this fish at it's very best. A perfect cut flower. [picture not brought over. DPC]

KoiCop:
JR . . .

Nice response -- and rest assured, I do get the Now vs. Future concept.

Fantastic examples of finished babies, by the way.

Now I'm hoping you'll indulge me for a moment, while I try to elaborate on a couple of comparisons.

While male shiro A (at 12") is the most finished of the three koi right now, it's not 'that finished' nor is its pattern 'that good.' Were it entered in a decent sized show this weekend, I doubt it has much winning potential (e.g., would be lucky to place in Size 3 Utsuri). When this koi's sumi does finish, it will probably be at 15"-20" long and still would have little (if any) show winning potential. So I see very little upside now and almost no upside later show-wise.

On the other hand, shiro C (at 10") could be a female and shows signs of early maturing. While it has no chance at a show this weekend, in six months (if properly finished) it might be able to compete for a Best Baby or Baby Champion trophy. So I see a potential show upside here.

Agreed? Thanks, Don

JR:
Agreed. Every koi has it's time to be a winning show fish. Or at least a shot at it. And a lot depends on the level of competition at a koi show. I've seen very awful fish win first place as they are the only fish in the class and size! I always say if you want to win a first place, bring a bekko ! They are getting as rare as hen's teeth! I don't think any of these fish ( A, B or C) are particularly great show fish as of today. And they would not be hard to beat if shopping for a ringer among a large number of tosai.

So I picked C as a fish that might actually find a niche as a good show fish if the sumi finishes early. It has a potential pleasing pattern and the body is good for a small show fish and as I said, it hints that it is building volume bone now but not length. This is also the type of fish that would likely later be competing with younger fish which will give it an advantage of being bigger boned and more finished at that time.

KoiCop:
JR . . .

Thanks.

That puts a proper bow on the Now vs. Later (for Show) discussion -- and illustrates why "It All Depends" is a qualifier too frequently left unasked and unanswered. Don

[chinadna]

I choose B. Baby shiro will have a great change ,so I only choose the strong and the bigger one.haha

[gregbickal]

I can't wait to see the progress on these 2. Great selection!!

[Ronin-Koi]

Seeing that there is a Koi-Bito Omosako shiro utsuri grow out contest brewing, I thought I would bump up this thread and also provide an update on my two Omosako shiro utsuri. I am still tempted to join in on the Koi-Bito grow out....

These update photos are actually from mid-October. For those that do not know, I am still working on my main pond which I had planned to finish this year but have not, and have kept these koi along with 6 others in a 700 gallon QT system (shame on me! )

While I think there is still a lot to be learned by comparing the A and C koi, I have to point out that the smaller C koi, Obi-Wan spent some time recovering from injuries that occurred about a month after I bought it. I had never had a koi jump from the QT and one day when I neglected to cover with netting, the smaller Obi-Wan jumped out. Luckily, I found it and although I was certain it was dead - it was stiff as cardboard, I was able to revive it with time and helped it to heal. It had lost some scales and I think it had hurt its eye that had dried while it was against the concrete floor. Now, it seems to have fully recovered and their is no sign of injury, but I think that it's growth may have been slowed some due to the trauma of its injuries.

Even so, both koi grew about 6 inches in the last 6 months. The larger Qui-gon in particular has added both length and a lot of mass.

Here are the growth comparision photos of the two fish along with the summary of who voted for what fish. So, what do people think now given the updated photos? Does anyone change their preference?

- Wayne, hopes for more head sumi on both koi... he thinks he sees trace underlying sumi under there, but can not be certain.

[lildude]

as for me, I like A