Cycling new Pond

[KoiCop]

Steve . . .

Very nice, indeed.

Well planned and well executed. You managed the start up process in textbook manner resulting in a smooth transition over a 1 month period. No big spikes & no trauma to the fish.

Job Well Done.

[JasPR]

well consider me a guy who can't stand peace and quite , but-----

Is the cycle complete? Maybe. But only 'maybe'.

I have difficulties with two facts here:

1) the level the nitrite reading got to.
2) the use of inorganic ammonia as a nutrient in a system that will soon be very organically rich relative to say, a fish aquarium.

JR

[KoiCop]

JR . . .

Interesting points. Ya trying to start a conversation, or what?

OK, 'Cycling' refers to the completion of the nitrification cycle, i.e. the simultaneous and instant conversion of ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. It marks the point where the ammonia (and hence the nitrite) which the koi produce can no longer harm them. Steve appears to have reached that point -- should he be able to hold it.

As for questioning the use of inorganic ammonia as a nutrient during the start up process, I'm aware of your thoughts on borrowing the 'sterile technique' from the tropical fish/aquarium hobby:

It was viewed as a modern approach ---- IN ABOUT 1985!!!!!
Source: Making Your Own 'bottled Bacteria' - KoiShack

I think the fact that he also brought over established media from his old pond and added koi several times during the process has helped to mitigate those concerns.

Your thoughts?

[JasPR]

Me, looking to start a conversation? Me?? LOls

Yep, you know my rap on this one. I think the old media was an excellent start and I think he likely had a good representation of local species at that point. But feeding the bottled ammonia ( pure organic) would begin to mold THAT population from day one. And I think that is kinda the point- " if you build it they will come" shifted to " if you feed it, they, and only they, will multiply". It is true that some forms of heterotrophic bacteria can do nicely on inorganic ammonia and can even mimic nitrifiers ( but don't produce the same byproducts.), but you still end up in the same place- a biofilm crafted to cope with the food supply that you provided and a biofilm that must go through a second modification when the food supply is shifted to what is now actually providing the meal- the fish ( both organic and inorganic forms of waste).
This is not a biggy in and of itself, but important to understand as in the event things go wrong, the owner will understand why and not over react to the water conditions as the invisible battle of dominance and higher archie is decided among the microbes. Koi are hardy and can make their way through but owners are not as strong and the urge to add something to the water to fix it is overwhelming for some.
So that 'conversation' aside, I do wonder about the level the nitrite got to before clearing as that peak level shows the strength of the cycle. This is the weak link in the whole nitrification cycle so you really want to see that nitrite test get wine purple/red for a week or so and then, overnight, be perfectly clear. The reason you can't do this with ammonia is that sky high ammonia actually retards the cycle. So 'sky high' nitrite is the best sign of a normal and robust cycle.
I guess my opinion is, a 'clean' cycle using inorganic ammonium has the advantage of being disease free ( but then again that is ultimately dictated on how you seed the system. IE source of bacteria) and that in theory, a clean feeding should be a fast cycle ( 20 days at temperature ' door to door') due to the fact that run away heterotrophics can't interfer. Yet this idea is short circuited if the cycle is obtained but then the 'real' biology arrives and sets the entire thing backwards. Ironically, it could take much longer to get through New Pond Syndrome period and NPS might swing more wildly during that time.
I started a thread over on KS before this- Best, JR

[Birdman]

Interesting comments guys, thanks. Here's some more of mine.
1st, at only 45 to 50 degrees in both old and new ponds did the old cycled lava rock really do that much? Was the bacteria that active at that cold temps?
After starting the pond with bottled ammonia at 3 ppm I waited until I saw nitrites come up, at that point ammonia atarted coming down. When the ammonia got down to 1/4 ppm I added 3 fish. Ammonia came up a bit, then about 3 days later was back down so added 3 more fish. This was the routine for the whole cycle.

The nitrite level never at anytime exceeded 1/2 ppm. Instead fairly soon the nitrates started coming up. Twice durning the cycle the nitrates hit 10 ppm and I did water changes to bring them back down. After I quit adding fish the ammonia dropped to 0 then the nitrites to 0, then a water change brought nitrate from 7 to 5.

Doing water tests every morning and night I never did see a hard nitrite spike. It went to .5 and just stayed there. Seams like I was going straight from ammonia to nitrate.

[KoiCop]

Steve . . .

Thanks for the additional information.

In addition to all the other measures you took, the fact that your stocking level is still so low (approx. 1,000 gallons per fish, if I've got it right) has kept your startup bio-filtration from becoming overloaded -- which is good.

Just remember, though, it's still new and fragile -- so continue to feed it (and grow it) slowly.

[KoiCop]

JR . . .

I doubt that many of us understand why a biofilm crafted to cope with sterile ammonia from a bottle should have such a hard time being able to process 'live' ammonia from a fish. Why would it be setback? Why would it need to reorganize and/or start over?

After all, I'm sure a chemist would tell us: Ammonia, shamonia, it's the same stuff. Right?

[Birdman]

Just a quick up date. This morning
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates 5
My water is starting to get a little green so I pluged in the UV.

[mitten]

Quote: Originally Posted by Birdman 1st, at only 45 to 50 degrees in both old and new ponds did the old cycled lava rock really do that much? Was the bacteria that active at that cold temps?

Neck sticks out...

You are in a cold weather type climate and I believe that your climate and mine will have types of bacteria in their filters that take advantage of the lower temperatures as their niche in the overall scheme. Are they THE bacteria so much is written about? Nope. Are they doing their job as they were meant to with their own levels of activity? Yes, I think so.

Now if you had taken your rock from someone else's pond, from like SoCal, dude, and put it in your setup at your temps you would have the results of ...Nothing.

Also, the fact your rock was used, had been used for years, helped in another fundemental way that JR's been talking about. The surfaces have been conditioned, and the "bed" was already made. The bacteria just had to slip on in, (or pop on up). Much less time involved than starting fresh. I would have just skipped the ammonia and went for fish, starting with the big ugly one, of course. Pouring anything from a bottle into the pond makes me nervous, still, after my newbie, idiot , treat 'em 'til they're dead, days.

In my cold weather setups, commonly known as COLD setups for the Socal folks and my Florida buds, start up is fairly smooth in spring if I don't try to accelerate things and instead let conditions gain momentum slowly. That means I have to refrain from feeding more than small amounts and must make small water changes frequently/daily. And my filters are shut down, 100%, for more than three months. Wet, not frozen solid, but shut down.

Do I like this? No. Do I count on the bacteria to do their specialized jobs? Yes. And I try not to wreck it.

[JasPR]

Mickey, no doubt that our 'four season fish' live in 'four season ponds'! And this applies to all of us- including subtropical Florida and Southern California.

As light changes, temperature varies and fish are fed more or less, the microbial mix modifies. The only thing that really keeps the dominating species- the DOMINATING SPECIES, is our effort to maintain the water.
Here is something that must sink into every hobbyists head-

The microbes that exist in our pond only exist because they can find space and food in that pond. So like a rheostat we can dial up or down species ( within limits of course).

So when people say I'm going to have 'extra' biofiltration, they are instantly demonstrating that they do not understand biofiltration. You can have extra 'space' but you can't have more bacteria than what can be fed by the fish ( directly and indirectly). This is called carrying capacity and it is a direct relationship between the fish's output and the bacteria count.
Second important point- inorganic ammonia from a bottle is the same as inorganic ammonia from the fish's gills. But more ammonia , in the average pond will come from fish poop, fish slime ( it is shed like dog hair from the big dog living in your house!) , dying algae ( some dies daily), tree and plant pollen ( if you doubt its effects check out your black car in the drive way in Spring), bits of pellet too fine to be eaten. And lots of other surprising sources thanks to wind and rain.

Now if you take point #1 and add point number two, you quickly realize that using inorganic ammonia is conditioning a pond towards inorganic ammonia!! But not towards the realities of what an outdoor pond will be filled with in way of microbial nutrient. This is what extends new pond syndrome period in Inorganic ammonia conditioning methods. The pond must go through a second period and sort out the missing species at the expense of the growth phase of the nitrifiers.
In a certain sense, adding inorganic ammonia to cycle an outdoor koi pond is the flip side of the same 'misguided coin' that has hobbyists adding bottled bacteria to improve the performance of a pond.

As far as Birdman's report of cycling with that level of nitrite, I say again- maybe. He could have a complete cycle but at a very low level cell count. Meaning he will have to go slow and build the carrying capacity so that it parallels the growth of the small community he has established. Or he may be building numbers and coaggregation is not completed at all? Only time will tell. I just want to re-inforce this so that if Birdman is struggling in June, he will not have 'lost his place' and will be able to rethink where he's at , at that point. Otherwise people in this situation tend to get crazy and all all sorts of things to the pond water or rip out filters etc. No need if you know what happened in hindsite. Usually time is the only real remedy at that point. But the fish's health needs to be protected through that period.
JR