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Old 04-26-2007   11 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #1 (permalink)
Oyagoi
 
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I want to learn..judging Kumonryu!!!

I recently got my hands on a two year old copy of nichirin magazine. I saw a show in Japan that was actually won by an amazing kumonryu. These 6 kumonryu, beni kumonryu and Ginrin Kumonryu were all in my posession at one time or another. Some sold, heron ate one..some I still have. I realize this is probably the most variable of all koi types...but always striking. Let the judging begin..and hopefully the big guys will chime in with a few lessons regarding how to purchase a good one.
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Old 04-27-2007   #2 (permalink)
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A show won by a kumonryu? In Japan? Or a ZNA chapter elsewhere in the world?
I say that because kumonryu, one of my favorite non gosanke also, is not usually in the hunt to beat every gosanke in the show?!
At any rate, about judging kumonryu-
It is first the same in that we judge all koi against a standard for the breed AFTER we have judged it for soundness, confirmation, quality, color and pattern. And depending on size and age these categories shift in order or become emphasized based on age/size.
A word about judging- many judges will judge on the old point system. This is reliable and necessary to a degree but it is always at the expense of the all important subjective element of judging. And that can be quite disappointing in terms of honoring unique or special fish that happen not to score high on the point system.
Others judge strictly from the ‘heart’ and judge a fish as a whole creature based on the impression the fish makes on them. That is OK to a degree- and it is true that many folks with a ‘natural’ eye gravitate to judging and are quickly accepted into the program. These are also unfortunately, the people most resistant to future learning and miss details of soundness, confirmation etc.
A judge has to be above all things flexible in attitude. The ‘team’ of judges will usually compensate for the extreme point of view and bring things back to center anyway. The flexibility however, is invaluable as it is what provides for future learning and therefore more enlightened judging.
OK rant over, but I wanted to get that out there so that we can move to kumonryu judging.
Kumonryu are of course, kawarimono class, unless they are not! You remember when I said that kujaku MUST first and foremost have teri or shine? Well the reason THAT is so important is that kujaku enters the show as one representative of hikari moyo . So by definition, these are shiny fish! If they are not, then they must really be put in kawarimono as a normal skinned koi. This often happens with matsuba by the way , a close relative of kujaku. If it is shiny it goes in hikari and if not, it goes in kawari mono.
Kumonryu is from a known breeding that requires it be in with it’s relatives - karasu goi. But kumonryu can also be ginrin ( yep those few scales can be ginrin), metallic ( I say kawari , most say hikari- moyo ) and kumonryu can be ‘real’ kumonryu, some variation on doitsu karasu types, two colored red kumonryu and now three colored kumonryu. All this means that a great deal of subjectively enters into the decision making . But it should not be ‘judging from the heart’ although it can some times appear that way.
The classic kumonryu is pictured below on the left. It is killer and perfect as a true kumonryu. Yet it is not the most famous kumonryu! The ‘orca’ kumonryu is THE most famous kumonryu. The point being, if we are using the point system, and are ‘orthodox’ in our standard for kumonryu, the first fish wins! If we judge with allowed subjective element, the second fish wins.
I am a koi judge. I LIKE real kumonryu and that is my subjective bias. I believe pattern makes for a good kumonryu just like ‘teri’ makes for a good kujaku. But in the case below I would have to honor the second fish on the right with the win ( just talking pattern here and not confirmation as these are vastly different size fish). I’m running very long so I’ll give someone else a change and then later we can talk about your fish and rank them ----

JR
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Old 04-27-2007   #3 (permalink)
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I think black and white koi are attractive and have spent many a year learning about utsuri and Kumonryu ( and the scaled version matsukawabake )

When I would buy Kumonru like the one pictured in the center of your 5 fish spread as tosai, withing a year or two they mostly went all white and stayed that way. If I bought one that was all black with just a nickle sized shoulder of white behind the head, the black held and they turned out really nice.
The nicest ones I ever saw came from the breeder Iizuka ( pronounced EE-zoo-Kaa)

As jim says it's rare they compete for anything serious but at Puget Sound koi club's young fish show, 2 years back; one narrowly missed out on GC. It was by far the better of the 2 fish quality wise but don't think the world was ready to accept a non gosanke.
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Old 04-27-2007   #4 (permalink)
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"---but don't think the world was ready to accept a non gosanke".


Nor should they! I lov'em too but they are :

A) crosses ( not seriously line bred like gosanke, nor in a communial way like gosanke )
B) doitsu and not wagoi
c) kasasu goi , the most primitive ( least evolved from magoi) group of nishikigoi we have.

JR
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Old 04-27-2007   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
I recently got my hands on a two year old copy of nichirin magazine. I saw a show in Japan that was actually won by an amazing kumonryu. These 6 kumonryu, beni kumonryu and Ginrin Kumonryu were all in my posession at one time or another. Some sold, heron ate one..some I still have. I realize this is probably the most variable of all koi types...but always striking. Let the judging begin..and hopefully the big guys will chime in with a few lessons regarding how to purchase a good one.

These 6 Kumonryu.... I would pick 3rd one from left


These photos are from Nichirin March 2007
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Old 04-27-2007   #6 (permalink)
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My friend own them. The left one has a top level sumi quality and the right one is a rare brown Kumonryu??
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Old 04-27-2007   #7 (permalink)
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Great information guys...and amazing pics. JR..this is the show I mentioned in Nichirin. It is in the may 2005 issue #449. It was the 34th Tobu of Kocki ZNA Branch nishikigoi Show. Located in Nangoku city, Kochi. Date:Nov 21, 2004
I found this 67cm 4yr old kumonryu to be mind blowing. Simply an amazing specimen.
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Old 04-27-2007   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
These 6 Kumonryu.... I would pick 3rd one from left


These photos are from Nichirin March 2007
Me too...this was bred by Sakai(H). Unfortunately...the heron loved him as much as I did
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Old 04-27-2007   #9 (permalink)
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what type of water do they prefer? how many yrs before their B & W pattern becomes stable? i know, what a stupid Q
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Old 04-27-2007   #10 (permalink)
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Hello, JasPR. May I ask you something.....Are you a ZNA judge or other Association?
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