Koi with skin problems

[saferego]

Pretty interesting stuff thanks JR. Sounds like you're saying, at worst, that I would only need to consider getting rid of affected koi and that the other koi should not be carriers, or at least not the non-red ones.

Interesting about nitrate level. Mine is is 10ppm.
GH is 6 degrees,
KH is 6 degrees,
PH is 7.8 usually
Ammonia is 0
Nitrite is 0
Should I be aiming for something lower than 10ppm nitrate?

Other info in case it might be relevant: my filter is a combination of vortex then 1000L settlement chamber containing netting to trap algae, K1 chamber, UV then trickle down hydroponic clay (above water level). I have also been using a large canna lily plant filter for years but have recently stopped as they create a large amount of sludge build up which is hard to clean without removing the large plants all the time. Pond water is turned over once every 4 hours (which I realise is a bit slow).

I'd like to try the KH manipulation in warm water, presumably using hydrochloric acid to bring it down. Do you know somewhere that I can find more details about the technique eg how long for, how low KH etc etc. Heating my whole pond in winter would be v. expensive, so perhaps I'll just have to wait until summer. It's interesting that warmer water seems to ease the problem already, and cold water aggravate it, just in time for the annual show this year. Frustrating.

cheers, Richard

[JasPR]

You are most welcome Richard.
Yes, that's right, this falls into the 'personal problem' category for individual fish problems rather than a group dynamic.

I don't know if I'd try acids? You can use RO water and mix it with your tap water if you like. And as you adjust things you need to watch your pH like a hawk so this is NOT for the general pond setting. This problem is too extensive on the fish you posted a picture of to treat with billion liquid. But if you have others with localized areas, you can try that using a hair dryer to seal it to the skin and heat treat epidermal cells.

I'd aim for nitrate at 5 ppm or lower. You can incease water changes, feed less and add trickle towers in summer. Is fertilizing plants been a problem in terms of nirate readings? You also didn't mention stocking levels or I missed it? How are they?

If you tell me who the breeder is I will tell you if it is likely the source you are getting your fish from taht is making it 'look like' a contagion in your pond? ( you can leave me a PM here at Koi Bito and I'll respond privately so we don't embarrass any one dealer or breeder)

[saferego]

Thanks JR. I don't have a source of RO water so I wonder whether rain water would do, or perhaps water that I've already treated with acid in a separate container to get the KH down before I add it. What do you think would be best?

The reason for the plants is that I was using them to keep the nitrates down. I never fertilized them as they grew very strongly from the nutrients in the water. Some months ago I introduced the K1 as part of the filter system which apparently keeps nitrates down (aswell as the ammonia and nitrite of course) and then removed the plants to avoid the sludge buildup problem. I have another pond which has been running K1 only for 3 years and nitrate is also 10ppm so I figure that might be about as low as it'll go with K1.

The fish are fine. The fish with the really bad hikkui you saw in the pic is the most eager feeder of the lot and was a toby in its spawning. It is always the first to get to the food and is very tame and docile. I have spawned with her twice in the past couple of years and now I'm not sure I should be keeping the babies. I have 10 fish in the pond ranging in size from 40 to 60cm, average length probably around 50cm.

I'll send you a pm about the lines.

[JasPR]

I'd try collecting the rain water and test the pH and hardeness. I assume you don't have serious pollution problems? Then mix this with tap water until you have a 'formula' that works. Watch for pH crashes! Especially since you will likely be doing this in a smaller body of water and the koi will impact that lack of alkalinity in a negative way. use oyster shells for your media along with normal media and use lots of aeration. The less fish the better but koi should never be alone. They are schooling fish and very social so one tank mate at least.

OK, so you get the picture on your nitrate- your ambient level has settle in at 10 based on your stocking level, feeding routine and plant efforts to reduce it. So your opinions are - less fish or less food or more water changes.

Hikkui , oddly enough, is not a health problem in terms of effecting the fish's appetite, life span, breeding interest or general immune response to other diseases. It is just disfiguring. Unfortunately.

Best of luck with yoru experiments. JR

[l113892]

Jim-

The breeder known for hikkui- would that be Igarashi Kazuto- his Sanke?

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 Jim- The breeder known for hikkui- would that be Igarashi Kazuto- his Sanke?

I believe it is Jimbei - Sanke

[PapaBear]

It is curious that it only appears to break out on beni color cells to the exclusion of all others. It makes me wonder if manipulating the Kh may be for the purpose of degrading the osmotic function of the culprit, but the red color cells are the food supply???
Has any work ever been done experimenting with different type color enhancers in the Koi food to see if there was a correlation between colorant typology and hikui growth/death of the culprit itself?

[JasPR]

I don't think it would responsible to name breeders publically. You can all find the names on the lips of long time Dealers. Waddy and Grant Fugita can tell you guys the names I'm sure.

Papa, the better fish are not fed colored food. Only tateshita as tosai are heavily colored up. But yes, it is a 'disease' generated from beni ,although some say they have had it on other color cells. No one can deny however that is predominately a beni cell issue.
Bright researchers at the Nishikigoi research group have studied the problem for a while. And now that hikkui is not as common today as it once was, it doubt it is serious studied today like it was when it was envisioned a s a real threat in the 1980s. No virus has been isolated to date and certainly the 'old higher parasite worm' theory is abandoned. Maybe some of the new backyard dealers will tackle it as they did with KHV and use over the counter products to try and cure it? Perhaps you can get the flea market board to take a run at it? ( I know, I know, I'm bad)

Seriously, I think the answer is as complex as the answer for cancer. And like cancer, it may turn out to be a synergy of genetic pre-disposition, enviromental factors, a virus? a skin cancer or a simple gentic skin condition?
But foods? I don't think so? Unless we are talking about a skin allergy and reaction to the food ingredients.

A few bright bulbs around the world are now talking about the contaminated wheat and gluten products being used in pet foods to include pellets now.That is probably a better and more interesting focus for food worries. I had a husky come down with kidney problems after eating some of that recalled dog food. BUT it was months before the high profile media coverage. I often wonder if koi wipe outs that are immediately focued on KHV might not be linked to tainted food? JR

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR ...the better fish are not fed colored food. Only tateshita as tosai are heavily colored up. But yes, it is a 'disease' generated from beni ,although some say they have had it on other color cells. No one can deny however that is predominately a beni cell issue....

I wasn't thinking so much in terms of the food being the cause, but rather that feed manipulation as a possible treatment. Color enhancing feed of a type that might tend to starve/poison/kill the culprit at its food source... Just a random thought... or brain fart depending on your point of view

[KoiCop]

For detailed information & photos on treating hikui, I highly recommend Duncan Griffiths' article on KoiQuest:

Hikui