Polygeyser vs Alpha 1 and Pump recommendations

[CBRS2K]

Quote: Originally Posted by mitten Sea Brothers 2000- I can't type fast enough or draw well enough to relate all the answers like I would like to.. Sorry.

Hi Mitten,

Nice pond. It's very much along the design lines that I am trying to implement. It looks like you have much of your filtration hidden behind (about 3 ft?) a decorative waterfall wall.

Unfortunately, due to set back and access requirements, I don't have 3' behind the pond to extend the filtration bay into. I tried to push the filtration bay "into" the pond, but that didn't look very good, from a proportional standpoint. I'm hoping that cantilevering the filtration/falls over the pond won't be too cost prohibative. Otherwise, I may have to go back to a pressurized set up, a little further away from the pond.

Can you tell me if, in your opinion, my concerns/assumptions are valid and worth pursuing? Or, am I getting a little too paranoid about the issues that I have identified and I should just get on with finalizing the design and move into the construction phase? I want to try to do this once (at least for this pond) as opposed to trying to "fix" mistakes and oversights after the pond is in.

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by CBRS2K Hi mynamy, Regarding the Matala set up. I think I understand your point. The reason that I wanted to put some Matala ahead of the bead filter was to do some extra mechanical filtration before the water entered the bead filter. This was an attempt to stretch out the time between backflushes. Since I sometimes have to travel for extended periods, I wanted to see if I could trap more of the solids that would tend to clog a pressurized filter, before it entered the filter. Since the SC had a larger capacity to hold detrius, pre-filtering in the SC seemed to be a reasonable compromise. If your settling chambers are designed/sized correctly for the planned flow rate, you shouldn't need to add the additional matting in the SC before going to the bead filter (if you decide to use one). However, if I can figure out how to make a pure gravity system work (from a cost and asthetics standpoint), there would no longer be a need for the pressure unit. Again, the cost for two properly sized bead filters would end up costing more than the "mechanical" filter chambers. That SHOULD include gunite, coating and media within! As for the BD, I'm not quite sure that I understand you point. Are you saying that having air injected "at pressure" somehow has a negative effect on water quality that the TTs/showers compensate for? The only problem here would be oversaturation, which I really doubt you'd incur. Can you further explain your point? Here is my understanding of the pros and cons of what an aerated BD provides: Pros: Adds additional air content to the water YES Provides additional "flow" to the BD and increases overall pond circulation (bottom to top), due to the water being displaced upwards by the injected air YES Fish sometimes like to swim in the bubbles - YES, BUT NO AS IMPORTANT AS POINTS 1 AND 2 Cons: Pond circulation (Second "Pro" bullet) becomes a "Con" if aeration is not shut down during the winter months, as this would eliminate the natural thermalcline (sp?) that would occur to insulate the fish from further cooling effects due to weather conditions. AN ACTUAL THERMOCLINE IN A KOI POND??? May need to be shut down when "showing" the pond/fish as the bubbles can hinder visibility to the fish - True, but you can buy a remote to plug the air into at Home Depot for under $20! Could be a maintenance issue, as (any?) aeration unit will tend to clog over time. If shut down for each winter season, I am also wondering if this would further add to maintenance issues. The bottom drains I referred you to, the "koi toilets" have a new model of air diffuser. They have a built in check valve type flap that seals from back water entering your air lines. They work very well!I would assume that shutdowns would allow for water to back fill the feed lines. No When re-activated, I would also assume that this extra moisture in the feed lines would provide a fertile environment for molds and bacteria to grow, furthering my concerns about maintenance. N/A If this would occur, I would not only have to worry about replacing the aeration dome, but also trying to figure out how to snake the feed line(s). If this is the case, I'm thinking the "Cons" really begin to outweigh the Pros. Won't happen!! If I decide to install "standard" BDs, instead of aerated ones, I was thinking that if I had enough water "thinning" occuring in my TTs/showers, and falls, my water oxygenation "should be" adequate.Shoulda, woulda coulda!!LOL I could also enhance water oxygenation by putting air stones in the submerged filter tanks which would increase oxygen content directly to any beneficial bacteria dwelling there as well as what would be generally available to go back to the pond. This should be done anyway!! If I go with TTs/showers, I was thinking of allowing for a system bypass that would feed directly TPRs/jets from the submerged filtration tanks. This bypass would be used during winter months to prevent the TTs/showers and falls from providing additional cooling to the pond. Very sound idea! As such I would be flowing oxygenated water from the submerged filter tanks into the pond as well. While I understand that this flow would NOT be able to replace the levels of oyxgenation that the TTs/showers and falls would have provided; I would be counting on the fact(?) that the koi would be much less active during these months, thus needing much less oxygen as well. So, what happens to the bio filtration? If you live here in California, you still would benefit from bio activity, albeit less than normal. Are my assumptions regarding BD Pros and Cons reasonable? If I am missing something, any additional input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Send me a pm about your schedule for being in the Cupertino area. You're 20 min. from me and if I can meet you at Fancy Koi Outlet, I would be happy to do so.

Mike

[moikoi]

here's my chamber + Ultima filter. i basicly use the Ultima for water change.welll...maybe i do get some bio from it.

i think you should install BDs with air diffuser while you have the chance.you can always slow down the flow in the winter time. i ran my waterfall all winter and the coolest water temp hit was 42*

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by moikoi here's my chamber + Ultima filter. i basicly use the Ultima for water change.welll...maybe i do get some bio from it. i think you should install BDs with air diffuser while you have the chance.you can always slow down the flow in the winter time. i ran my waterfall all winter and the coolest water temp hit was 42*

I do the same basic thing as far as the waterfall goes. Lowest temp hit this year was a new record for my pond but it only hit 46F.

[CBRS2K]

Hi Koiczar and Moikoi,

Thanks for your pond temp. readings. I had nothing to really go on, so I was assuming much worse. In the winter, it can dip into the upper 20s in the evenings out here. Moikoi, where abouts are you in Sacto? I'm in RC, any chance of me getting a chance to see your pond "up close and in person"?

Kind Regards,

Steve

[schildkoi]

CBRS2K, I copied the below and want to make a few comments.

Quote: Cons: Pond circulation (Second "Pro" bullet) becomes a "Con" if aeration is not shut down during the winter months, as this would eliminate the natural thermalcline (sp?) that would occur to insulate the fish from further cooling effects due to weather conditions. AN ACTUAL THERMOCLINE IN A KOI POND??? May need to be shut down when "showing" the pond/fish as the bubbles can hinder visibility to the fish - True, but you can buy a remote to plug the air into at Home Depot for under $20! Could be a maintenance issue, as (any?) aeration unit will tend to clog over time. If shut down for each winter season, I am also wondering if this would further add to maintenance issues. The bottom drains I referred you to, the "koi toilets" have a new model of air diffuser. They have a built in check valve type flap that seals from back water entering your air lines. They work very well!I would assume that shutdowns would allow for water to back fill the feed lines. No When re-activated, I would also assume that this extra moisture in the feed lines would provide a fertile environment for molds and bacteria to grow, furthering my concerns about maintenance. N/A If this would occur, I would not only have to worry about replacing the aeration dome, but also trying to figure out how to snake the feed line(s). If this is the case, I'm thinking the "Cons" really begin to outweigh the Pros. Won't happen!!

~
First of all, Unless you have an EXTREMELY deep pond, you will not get a "thermocline". Thermoclines reuire depth to occur and in the typical Koi pond the depth simply isn't there and you won't find more than a degree or two difference. In addition, by failing to "mix" the water, even in the winter, you are subjecting some areas to poorer water quality than others. The issue of air to air domes becomes one of where the air is draw from and not whether it is on or not during the winter.

Mike has inserted some very valid points. I've had the same diffusers now for 7 years....never a clogging issue.

Steve

[CBRS2K]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi CBRS2K, I copied the below and want to make a few comments. ~ First of all, Unless you have an EXTREMELY deep pond, you will not get a "thermocline". Thermoclines reuire depth to occur and in the typical Koi pond the depth simply isn't there and you won't find more than a degree or two difference. In addition, by failing to "mix" the water, even in the winter, you are subjecting some areas to poorer water quality than others. The issue of air to air domes becomes one of where the air is draw from and not whether it is on or not during the winter. Mike has inserted some very valid points. I've had the same diffusers now for 7 years....never a clogging issue. Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the information. This has been a great thread and I'm learning a lot. With any luck, I'll have a reasonably stable plan to move forward with, shortly.

Kind Regards,

Steve