where's the ammonia

[powerman]

my koi have been in the new pond for two weeks.. the water has gone from 54 degrees to 58 degrees in that time....the fish bave been eating twice a day...ten koi from 10 inches to 20 inches... i still have 0 ammonia...0 nitrite and i even checked for nitrate and it is of course still 0.....how long should it take to get an ammonia level that will show up in the test ......is it the quantity of water...14000 gallons.. i have backwashed the bead filter twice and drained the vortex barrells twice also...i would guess about 900 gallons of a water change total...450 gallons a week

[JasPR]

yes, you haven't gotten to measurable levels yet. And if you are very lucky, the bacteria will track the expansion of of ambient ammonia and you never will! JR

[paladin_k2]

I cannot say that I would approach the new pond start up and search for ammonia in the same way you are going about it.

The cycle has to go through the stages to get stable and there can be stressful spikes which can endanger your fish.

For each kilogram of fish food that you feed, the koi will produce somewhere between 35 and 45 grams of ammonia depending on the protein content of the food being fed. Most of the ammonia is excreted back into the pond within the period from 1 to 6 hours after feeding.

If you have a rough idea of the total weight of food you are feeding per day you can continue to monitor the feeding rate and the ambient ammonia/nitrite levels and try not to just keep dumping in food if you begin to see a spike.

Your pond volume at 14,000 gallons is equivalent to roughly 62,000 liters of water. Your ammonia test kit and nitrite test kit should both be giving you indications of toxicity concentrations in terms of milligrams per liter (mg/L). If you can keep any ammonia spikes from going above 0.25 mg/L in a new pond before the biofilter system drives everything back to zero within 24 hours then your should be able to keep your fish safe and happy.

Try measuring the ammonia level 4 hours after feeding when it should be at its peak.

Do a quick back of the napkin calculation to figure out how much weight of feed you are feeding and how many mg of ammonia this should be dumping into the system. If you are feeding 125 grams of low protein wheat germ based food per feeding then your koi should be generating about 4,375 mg of ammonia per feeding. In your pond volume with no removal or filtration going this would register as 4,375 / 62,000 = 0.07 mg/L of ammonia and that should not even really register on the typical test kit sensitivity of 0.25 mg/L on the first step. You would have to feed three of 4 times that amount with your filters turned totally off in order to get the test to register.

In my experience of establishing Bio-filtration capacity the Nitrite consuming bacteria is far more difficult and erratic to establish and maintain. I would make sure that I was running an adequate base salt level to help buffer the fish against acute nitrite toxicity spikes since salt is one of the easy things that can help prevent problems in the new pond cycle. A salt level of 2.5 to 3 pounds of salt per 100 gallons of pond water in the unplanted pond should be high enough to buffer any moderate Nitrite spike by placing you in approximately the 2.5 ppt salt range. For your pond volume of 14,000 gallons you would need a big ole bucket-o-salt to carry the 350 to 420 pounds needed to get on the salted water registery.

In the past two years my water has never registered off ZERO on the ammonia or nitrite tests either but in my case the filters have been running longer plus we have large planter reverse flow bogs that the water passes through before returning to the Koi zones.

[powerman]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR yes, you haven't gotten to measurable levels yet. And if you are very lucky, the bacteria will track the expansion of of ambient ammonia and you never will! JR

i was wondering if that was possible....i read in koi kichi that ,in japan ,when they bring in the fish from the mud ponds they add them to the indoor tanks that have been cleaned out with cleaned out media and have been only running for a week so basically a new pond set up...they add all the fish..and deal with the ammonia and nitrite problem with in flows of fresh water...i think i have alot of bio capacity that should be able to deal with whatever i throw at it but i also know i am starting from scratch and the bacteria need the ammonia from the koi to start colonizing ......i hope they can keep up but i had never heard that you could start the process without a measurable ammonia spike... i will keep testing and keep the feed moderate until i have some nitrate...

[powerman]

Quote: Originally Posted by paladin_k2 I cannot say that I would approach the new pond start up and search for ammonia in the same way you are going about it. The cycle has to go through the stages to get stable and there can be stressful spikes which can endanger your fish. For each kilogram of fish food that you feed, the koi will produce somewhere between 35 and 45 grams of ammonia depending on the protein content of the food being fed. Most of the ammonia is excreted back into the pond within the period from 1 to 6 hours after feeding. If you have a rough idea of the total weight of food you are feeding per day you can continue to monitor the feeding rate and the ambient ammonia/nitrite levels and try not to just keep dumping in food if you begin to see a spike. Your pond volume at 14,000 gallons is equivalent to roughly 62,000 liters of water. Your ammonia test kit and nitrite test kit should both be giving you indications of toxicity concentrations in terms of milligrams per liter (mg/L). If you can keep any ammonia spikes from going above 0.25 mg/L in a new pond before the biofilter system drives everything back to zero within 24 hours then your should be able to keep your fish safe and happy. Try measuring the ammonia level 4 hours after feeding when it should be at its peak. Do a quick back of the napkin calculation to figure out how much weight of feed you are feeding and how many mg of ammonia this should be dumping into the system. If you are feeding 125 grams of low protein wheat germ based food per feeding then your koi should be generating about 4,375 mg of ammonia per feeding. In your pond volume with no removal or filtration going this would register as 4,375 / 62,000 = 0.07 mg/L of ammonia and that should not even really register on the typical test kit sensitivity of 0.25 mg/L on the first step. You would have to feed three of 4 times that amount with your filters turned totally off in order to get the test to register. In my experience of establishing Bio-filtration capacity the Nitrite consuming bacteria is far more difficult and erratic to establish and maintain. I would make sure that I was running an adequate base salt level to help buffer the fish against acute nitrite toxicity spikes since salt is one of the easy things that can help prevent problems in the new pond cycle. A salt level of 2.5 to 3 pounds of salt per 100 gallons of pond water in the unplanted pond should be high enough to buffer any moderate Nitrite spike by placing you in approximately the 2.5 ppt salt range. For your pond volume of 14,000 gallons you would need a big ole bucket-o-salt to carry the 350 to 420 pounds needed to get on the salted water registery. In the past two years my water has never registered off ZERO on the ammonia or nitrite tests either but in my case the filters have been running longer plus we have large planter reverse flow bogs that the water passes through before returning to the Koi zones.

thats alot of salt.....i have some salt on hand but no where near 420 lbs...i guess i should buy some more to have it on hand....but wouldn't salt at that level slow down the bacteria's speed of colonization....maybe a combination of water changes and salt if a nitite spike starts to happen?

[JasPR]

That is good advise Paladin gave for the typical 3000- 5000 gallon pond with a full load of fish going through a new cycle. No arguing the logic of salt application for nitrate poisoning protection.
But your experience will most likely be different. As your fish tip the scale and ambient ammonia is measured for the first time ( remember ALL ponds have some ammonia present if there are fish in the water, the trick is to make the ambient ammonia level so low that it won't register on a color test kit) you will already have second stage nitrifiers in place for nitrite management. Basically, your established , but low count, nirification film will increase carrying capacity as the fish grow.
The only way this won't work for you is if you do go out and buy several new adult fish. In that scenario you will likely trigger a problem as your carrying capacity can not adjust that quickly to that much additional nutrient.
And if you were to reach and overcome the dilution factor based on your volume/ biomass ratio, then creating an 'open' system like the Japanese do at harvest time ,until their filters come on line and they can move to a more closed system, should work equally as well for you.

Personally , I favor a 'outrageous ammonia assault' on a new pond with high ammonia for a brief time and then 'merlot' red readings on the nitrite kit before adding the koi. That way my nitrifiers are really dying back and not expanding from day 21 onward. But in your case, with your volume and excellent stocking discipline I suspect you will be fine. You're Just coming at equilibrium from the opposite end of the spectrum from what I described . JR

[paladin_k2]

I want to second JasPR's "outrageous ammonia assault technique" and indicate that is what I use and have recommended to others.

When fish are not present in the pond you can chemically introduce a measured amount of ammonia using 10% concentrated pure commercial liquid ammonia that is usually readily available at Ace hardware. Add just enough pure ammonia to drive the water to register at 1.0 mg/l and then wait for you bio filter to mature to a level that will take it back to near zero. Test for nitritites to see if you get some spike. Then add double the original ammount of ammonia and wait for it to go back to near zero. Test for nitrites and then wait for it to go back to near zero and technically you can be sure the pond loading capacity is ready to add fish with little or no expected bio stress.

Once you have determined your ammonia loading volume you can ratio and calculate what it takes to drive a smale spike of 0.25mg/L in your pond volume. A moderate to good functioning biofilter system can eliminate a 0.25mg/L spike in under 8 hours even when fish are present.

Salt at approximately 2ppt is still a good idea when adding quantities of new fish to a pond even when NH3/NH4 and NO2 are already confirmed to be in check. Somewhere in this forum there is a fairly good summary thread on "Salt . . ." that reemphasizes these points.

[powerman]

once again thanks to both of you....i wont add any new fish until my bio filter is mature enough to produce nitrate....and i will add some salt...meanwhile i will keep testing..........i don't know why i didn't try to do the bottled ammonia to start things off....i was waiting for temps and ph to get close to my indoor situation and then i moved the fish...hindsight is 20-20

[JasPR]

Yes and no for me Paladin. We both want a strong response and a massive cycle, on that we are in total agreement. But I don't favor use of inorganic ammonium as a means to the common end we both look for.
I have done that for many years on and off in marine systems. The major benefit being, no disease transmission as when you use live fish and actually stress them during the cycle making them even more likely to be disease or parasite vectors. A good clean cycling for sure.
But koi ponds are different from aquariums. Being outside and closely linked to 'greater nature' and considering that they are highly eutrophic trending closed systems to begin with, The finished microbial ecosystem is much more complex. And further, that I have come to a place of thinking that says , "ultimately a microbial population mix is a direct result of what the daily nutrient provided says it should be", In otherwords, I have come to the conclusion that seeding with a sucessful existing biofilm and then bringing it through the cycle with EXACTLY the nutrient types that it will ultimately face, is the only way to go.
In one sense, we have been enlightened by aquarist literature that taught all us 'non-scientists' about the nitrification cycle and it's importance in a closed system. But most of that is from lab experiments/studies on single and codependent sets of species. I'd recommend exposure to other points of view especially those of microbiologists in the applied and environmental microbiology areas to build on the basic concept of a two species only system. Or the idea that a nitrification cycle is the same thing as establishing a microbial community that is in equilibrium with it's daily nutrient supply.
A book you might find interesting is The Biology Of Temporary Waters by D. Dudley Williams. It is just one area of research that will show the 'mini-evolution' of new water as it goes through its own natural cycle exposed to the great outdoors.
JR

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by paladin_k2 Salt at approximately 2ppt is still a good idea when adding quantities of new fish to a pond even when NH3/NH4 and NO2 are already confirmed to be in check. Somewhere in this forum there is a fairly good summary thread on "Salt . . ." that reemphasizes these points.

I don't believe I've seen such a thread on this board? And I believe the last good summary thread on Salt was mine? Nor would I recommend he salt his pond -- since it would serve no purpose that I can discern.

Of course, I'd be interested to know why you think that it would be a good idea?

See: Salt . . . . . .