Who else has a passionate weakness for a well marked Utsuri???

[paladin_k2]

Substituting a new pic instead of adding the new pic with the new post really just creates confusion because it makes my last post look like a dillusion instead of a valid observation.

The new pick is a better Hi Utsuri example but still shows lots of random white trash that belies its tru Hi Showa heritage.

Truthfully the Utsuri and Showa lines are producing great fish due to the importation of great skin genes from the sanke and kohaku lines.

The whole Gosanke concept is a mess because in reality Kohaku and Sanke should be one branch of the tree while Showa and Utsuri should be another branch. The very idea that all levels of koidom should be suckered into the race for interpretation of Phenotype devoid of any adherence to Genotype is a root evil we should avoid at all costs.

A sanke painted like an Utsuri by way of a Sanke being painted like a Showa and then being painted like a Hi Showa and eventually being painted like a Hi Utsuri is not what we should be seeking. We should be seeking better Utsuri that still have some faithful Utsuri Genotype.

[JasPR]

I see. Well thanks for a conversation. I enjoyed it but it seems to getting emotional at this point so---- best of luck , JR

[paladin_k2]

Sorry I reacted so poorly. You sort of blindsided me with the Hi showa pics and the threadjack of the topic to another daily discussion of Gosanke skin quality.

Again I apologize and hope we can get back to enjoying real utsuri admiration for normal people.

[KoiCop]

P_k2 . . .

For many generations and hundreds of years the rice farmers of Niigata have woven the fabric of today's nishikigoi from native magoi stocks -- stocks which themselves were brought to Japan from who knows where (by who knows who), but which originated in river systems that drained into the Black, Aral and Caspian Seas.

In bits and pieces, fits and starts, with contributions over the years from many and a collective vision at times both quixotic yet implacable, those humble magoi have morphed into the grand creatures we know today.

The only constant has been change; sometimes glacial, sometimes rapid.

In nature, a phenotype (the observable characteristics of an organism, such as shape, size, color, and behavior) changes as a result of its genotype’s (total genetic makeup) reaction with the environment.

You say:

The whole Gosanke concept is a mess because in reality Kohaku and Sanke should be one branch of the tree while Showa and Utsuri should be another branch. The very idea that all levels of koidom should be suckered into the race for interpretation of Phenotype devoid of any adherence to Genotype is a root evil we should avoid at all costs.

But consider this: Nishikigoi are man-made. What we’ve made can be un-made &/or changed – at will. And man has done so. And man is doing so. And man will continue to do so.

Showa and Utsuri have no ‘natural’ phenotype or genotype as opposed to (or distinguishable from) that of Kohaku and Sanke. You’d have to go back to wild stocks in the above mentioned river systems to see “natural” genotypes and phenotypes.

So please spare us your pseudo-scientific rant and cant. Your arguments aren’t based on science; they’re based upon personal taste -- nothing more.

Nothing wrong with that, by the way; we all have likes and dislikes. It’s just that few of us would dream of stepping in front of the collective juggernaut of dealers, breeders and hobbyists – Japanese and otherwise – that drive our hobby and shouting:

No more change! From this day forward varietal standards shall be fixed in stone! Long live black based showa and utsuri! And we don’t want no stinking Gosanke skin quality in our branch of the Family Tree!

Balls in your court . . .

[paladin_k2]

I agree the ball's in my court and that is where it will stay. Unfortunately the purpose of this thread was not to open and resurrect the great Gosanke skin and color debate.

I wish JR would put back the original picture that he removed and substituted a different example for. The original pic was a great example of what is wrong with judging at shows at not necessarily the perfect example of and Utsuuri fish. Wish you could see the flashy white fins to get a better perspective of why the whole threadjack of this topic was out of place.

Utsuri should be a black skin based fish and the fins should predominantly match the ground color or be black. That was my only point.

Fish that are so obviously white finned and showa or snake based as in the example of the fish JR originally posted should have been reclassed out of the Utsuri judging categoried or DQd as not meeting the basic standard of what the class requires regardless of how fantastic the other colors and body conformation might be.

I spend a great deal of base time trying to counteract the Gosanke mumbo jumbo to help new ponders and koikeepers recognize that Kohaku and Sanke go together in one pond while Showa and Utsuri go together in another.

But again the purpose of this thread was not to argue or discuss gosanke breeding and its bleed over impacts on other varieties. The purpose of this thread was to just admire and enjoy real Utsuri without the invaders.

[KoiCop]

p_k2 . . .

Quote: Originally Posted by paladin_k2 Utsuri should be a black skin based fish and the fins should predominantly match the ground color or be black. That was my only point.

That's your point based on your opinion. Nothing more. And when you use the word 'should' you really should classify it as such, IMHO.

You remind me of my grandfather, who oft lamented that 'real music' ended with the Big Band era -- that nothing to come along since held any musical merit, whatsoever.

Maybe you two have much in common.

As for thread-jacking? Nonsense. There are precious few "new ponders and koikeepers" on this board. So if you post an opinionated piece here you'd best be prepared to defend your opinions.

No free lunches on 'Bito.

[paladin_k2]

I guess I will have to just chalk this one up as just a valuable and worthwhile experience in troll detection and move on to another topic.

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by paladin_k2 I guess I will have to just chalk this one up as just a valuable and worthwhile experience in troll detection and move on to another topic.

You really shouldn't talk about JR like that. You might hurt his feelings.

[JasPR]

Well Isn’t this ironic?! Usually among my judge peers , I’m considered a hard Traditionalist. I promote koi as a hierarchy of expanding genetic variation all based on two simple concepts.
One) the white based and black based koi and
two) the evolution of four genetic pattern types.


Against this backdrop however I recognize the inevitable- koi breeding , like life, is about change. After all, evolution doesn’t stop. I want change. Slow rational change. Otherwise there is no further progress and the innovative breeder is a wasted. We are only left with the imitator.
I’m happy to say that even the amateur judges realized this twenty years ago now, when they allowed a subjective element into the point system. This allowed for exceptional animals that represented an exciting future for a variety or koi in general to compete. Even if not perfect by a point standard. And this in turn, unleashed the innovative breeder to pursue the re-invention of breeds based on a dream of what could be.
As far as ‘Gosanke Invaders’ goes, gosanke has transformed Ochiba, goshiki, kujaku, shiro utsuri, kumonryu, and kikusui, so I have to ask " where the hell have you been" ? Even more frightening , are you even aware of this?

I mean, you are acting like it is something shocking to see hi showa used in hi utsuri crosses?? Do you realize that many early hi utsuri WERE showa? And that based on lineage alone, DO you realize that showa is from hi utsuri and kohaku crosses started in the early 1950s as a back cross?? And finally do you realize that showa were once only black based and now are shifting towards white base and are then going to be used to improve the insipid sumi of hi utsuri?
I know, I know, NOW who is getting emotional? Me- LOls
But honestly, it boggles the mind as to how you can be so confident in such a false perception of nishikigoi in 2007.



JR

[MikeM]

Paladin, JR: Forget the argument. What a great thread this has become for improved understanding of Utsuri. My thanks to you both!