Who else has a passionate weakness for a well marked Utsuri???

[koiczar]

JR, Paladin

I can see both sides of this. BTW MikeM, I agree, this is a very good thread!

JR

On one hand, I understand what Paladin is trying to express (I think). If anyone picks up a definition chart explaining the various varieties, hi and ki utsuri are defined the way Paladin has stated - with hi or ki colored fins with striations of sumi rather than a motoguro based shape. Also, there should not be any shiroji on the body or finnage.

These definitions are probably outdated as having been written over 40 years ago. Seems like someone like yourself should instigate a proposal to update these definitions where necessary to catch up with the innovative breeders of more modern times!?

Paladin

JR, on the other hand, has a very valid point. While your ideals are pure, your philosophy is kinda stuck in the 60's. Yeah, Don like your grandfather and music. I guess, as a musician, I get kinda stuck in time as late as the 60's but Big Band was real music too. I digress, as JR often says, but in this hobby, being "right" is not the point. We have to be able to change our views to move along with what the breeders are trying to do and that is make the best possible fish within a variety as they possibly can, regardless of what it takes, and I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!

Mike

[bekko]

I agree with Paladin - completely. Showa and utsuri are victims of identity theft.

Showa and utsuri were originally defined as black-based fish selected from black fry. The difficulty and low returns incurred in raising black-based koi from black fry contributed to their mystique. The showa breeder garnered a certain amount of respect for taking the more difficult road.

No doubt, today's showa and utsuri impostors which are selected from white fry are better looking koi. No doubt, they are easier and, thus, less expensive to mass produce. No doubt, the lost art of selecting black-based fish from back fry could be resurrected some day if there were a market demand for the product. Nonetheless, I am a little disappointed that we may never know if real black-based fish could have been improved through selection to achieve the flashy colors of the impostor showa and utsuri.

Does anyone know if the old style showa with chalkboard sumi can still be purchased? Where? Have those lines been preserved?

-steve

[JasPR]

Mike, if we wanted to get truly picky, we can trace back rock n roll to blues to the slaves in the cotton fields. Or country music to the Scots and Irish Scots living in the Ozarks! So stopping at one point and saying THIS is IT is a point of nostalgia or vanity. Understandable, but not enlightened. ( by the way, I'm listening to a 'British Invasion' home made CD as I'm typing! True! )

I think Waddington ( also a great musician and collector of guitars!) knows more about koi than any dealer in the world and most western breeders. I say this because I have picked his brain since 1987 and have been entertained and amazed by the depth of knowledge. The interesting thing is, it is the stories he tells while traveling in the car or over a beer that really are loaded with 'golden nuggets'. Why is he so knowledgeable? He has been observing the breeding programs and taking to the producers themselves since 1978. And like a lot of things including music, if you're in early, on the 'ground floor', you get a perspective on things that is priceless.
That is why I was so shocked and almost violent when he and Nigel suggested it was time to do away with asagi class and roll it into Kawari mono as a relic of the past!! I mean I was horrified. Because asagi was such a foundation fish for so many varieties and because a koi show is first and foremost about teaching about the varieties of koi, I wasn’t having it! Their argument was that asagi was no longer popular and was no longer being bred by the main breeders and was losing popularity. They felt that the koi show was a reflection of consumer demand and at the same time fueled by what was popular among both breeders and buyers. And therefore the varieties needed to be updated to reflect current times. To a point that is true and the reason why for a while we were seeing yamato nishiki at every show in every size and in other years tons of kumonryu and ochiba. But that was not justification for rolling BACK a variety, especially such an important foundation variety.
The reason I told that long story was to point out that evolution passes varieties by. Some get improved or re-invented and some become down right out of vogue. But their history is real and never changes. Today the ochiba is a kohaku cross and no longer an ogon type. The kujaku ogon, is now a kujaku, and kohaku is used to improve size, color and pattern. Today the shiro utsuri wins 90% of the time over hi and ki utsuri as they simply outclass the hi utsuri and the very weak ki utsuri thanks to modern gosanke blood. This is progress. In fact if you do your homework, you will see that the original formulas for creating certain breeds is not done the same way today in probably a full 60% of the varieties.
Budding US breeders NEED to learn the origins of black based and white based varieties to understand the genetics and to orientate themselves among the 100 plus variations out there. So do koi judges that rely on their gut feeling to judge rather than the genetic identity of a fish. But unlike judges, breeders then need to IMPROVE the stock. That is the goal of any breeder! Improving the line and the individual fish is the purpose of the effort. I mentioned the concept of innovator and imitator. We need both in the koi breeding programs. One is a traditionalist and the other is the dreamer. We need both. JR

Here is a 'good show winning shiro' from 1969. Then a modern shiro winning in 2003. You tell me.

[Brady Brandwood]

White based Showas and Utsuris ARE still a rarity. Black based will not be going away any time soon,... possibly never. On my farm I see 5 distinct "types" of sumi in my Showas (new and older style combined). One of these types is the old flat black Grandma's frying pan type sumi,... and it appears regularly, from my very modern Showa parent sets. It will be around forever. I keep a few around for nostalgia.

The Showa tosai on the left was born black - the Showa on the right was born white.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[JasPR]

Brady, can you tell us why baby showa and baby utsuri are black to begin with and where the black 'goes' to ? I think it will be helpful. JR

[JasPR]

Hello, HELLo--- helloooo, is this thing on?---

[Brady Brandwood]

Hi JR, sorry, I'm doing several things at once this morning, not a lot of time. Magoi are also born as black fry, as are several other Koi "types", such as some Chagoi, Koi that become Hajiro, some Goromo, and others. What we see is a root base of the lineage in black fry,... before the more modern "color" genes have had a chance to develop and show. As an example many black Showa fry will turn yellow at around 12 days +.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[KoiCop]

Brady . . .

Interesting that the flat black appears from your modern Showa parent sets. Do you consider that type of sumi to be a throwback?

Also, do you see a positive correlation between sanke sumi and gosanke skin? Or do you view the two traits as being independent of each other -- in other words, some with one, some with the other, and some with both?

Thanks in advance,

[koiczar]

JR

As far as the music goes, it was simply a response to KoiCop, not a debate over the best era of music. I think we can all agree that we do have our "favorite" era and what we grew up on!

As far as my reference to changing to varietal classifications, I didn't want to see some lumped together for lessening their value. I simply thought it might be about time to "update" the definitions of the varieties to allow newer hobbyists a better understanding for identification purposes. This thread is a very good point on the subject. If what we know to be, in fact, a Hi Showa, that won an award as a Hi Utsuri and that is acceptable, then why not include these attributes within the definition? Would that also change the definition within sanke concerning the difference between Aka Sanke and Aka Bekko if the line was to be brought back to the forefront and win as such in a major show? I'm not arguing the point here, just asking a question.

Mike

[JasPR]

Thanks Brady. I was hoping you would explain why they are black and it goes away and then comes back?

I'll get it started and you can fill in the blanks-

Koi are actual born before they are really ready to be born! By this I mean they are not really finished as baby fish upon hatching. In fact they are just larval forms of fish. The larvae, for instance have to swim bladder and can't regulate buoyance. they also can't eat for 3 or 4 days and live off of an eggyolk deposit. There are many OTHER things developing and that will develop in and on the larvae as they age in the new outside world. Gut, gills, etc all have to be developed. And so does the bone, muscle and skin!

STEP 1- So when we see a black fry along the way of development, we are looking THROUGH the thin skin with no scales yet. We are seeing a layer of fascia that will eventually cover the muscle mass and exist at the base of the dermis. The dermis and epidermis are less than paper thin at this point and will develop over time. And the scales will also emerge from 'pockets' within the dermis once this has set up. As the dermis develops, we will see the black color appear to disappear as it becomes masked by the expanding dermis and the scale growth. The fish becomes white but the black base fascia is still there.

Picture of fish fry to illustrate just how different a larvae is from a baby fish.