Hoshikin Kohaku

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR No one has 400 tategoi at age one???!! Bud, tategoi is a promising koi for next year. EVERYONE has 400 keepers! Or they'd have no two year olds!! If two pairs throw off 200,000 fry ( a very modest number) and 3/4 are thrown away ( a very heavy hand in culling for an established line of known breeders), that leaves 50,000. If only two percent are keepers ( the rest are tateshita for export) for next year ( and with kohaku of predictabel parents, Tosho San will confirm it is a much larger number/ percentage) that is 1000 fish. If the breed stashes away 500 for next year, that leaves 500 for sale. These number are very conservative as many breeders have multiple pairs. So I repeat, 500 hidden tategoi for next year grow out, 500 tategoi for sale and 49,000 tateshita for sale from between $35- $120 wholesale. Here is a photo of a famous breeders hold back tategoi-

JR, we are on the same page. I was talking only of Hoshikins top Tategoi Tosai, not his 400 keepers. Yes, if his 400 keepers were $5,000 a piece you got a point that would be wild. I do not consider the top 400 keepers the same as when I talk about Tategoi.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by dcny That sashi is very, very interesting. Did you have the chance to ask the breeders about it? I would love to hear what they told you about it.

Hi Dan,

No, I did not ask. It just an example of the quality his Koi show.

Russ

[JasPR]

cool. I was getting worrried!?? LOls JR

[mynamy1]

I was at Hoshikin earlier of the year and looked at his many grade of tosai kohaku. In the "high-quality" group, the lower grade ones came from a different mud pond and were color enhanced. The better grade of the group got the au naturel treatment. I would consider the latter group is close in overall quality to the group that destined for mud pond growth to become nisai.

So the shade of beni alone can reveal many information! MA. Le

[JasPR]

I think most breeders operate that way. There is the cull, and the keeper fish. As you know, they cull first for deformities and undesirable and the fish are destroyed. But future culls soon turn towards, live or die to sell now or sell later. The tateshita are colored up and not treated or housed near as well as the tategoi. Often they are outside under bamboo shades while the better siblings enjoy indoor heated facilities.
At this economic level ' tategoi' means 'will be worth more next year'. Afterall , why would a farmer sell something that took a lot of time, work and effort to create and then sell it at 1/4 what all his instincts and experience tells him it will be worth next year. These fish are for sale- if you are willing to pay up. And it is an escalating scale because just like a guy who graduates last in his class at medical school, he is still called Doctor. There is a theoretical line where the best tateshita is not too far from being the worst tategoi! As someone else said here- one man's tategoi is another man's tateshita when we use tategoi as a generic term. This is why I sometimes bristle when 'jumbo tategoi' are sold for outrageous prices. the term tategoi has been worked into forced grown fish. Some are tategoi and some are tateshita. But they ARE all big! I guess the inference is that they will all get to be a meter long and they have that potential? As if--
The REAL tategoi ( or the mythical version of the word) are the rare fish that show traits or 'something' that makes the fish a 'keeper' for more personal reasons within the breeder. Maybe as a future brood fish, maybe a fish that could be, at age six, his 'lottery ticket' to the 'Show'. Or maybe a fish that works out in a breeding experiment and lets the breeder know he is on the right track. Or maybe a fish that peaks curiosity within the breeder regarding a new pairing. These fish are not for sale.

This is why 'tategoi' only has meaning within the context of the conversation. That is also why ' potential fish' is the best interpretation I have heard so far as it covers it all.

[Richard Rombold]

Russ,

The fish look great and thank you for taking the effort as always to post great pictures for the rest of us to discuss and in the process learn.

JR,

Thanks for getting your hackles up and making very good points along the way. I sometimes cringe at how some threads teeter on the edge of incivility. However, you guys safely pulled this one through. Would you want to offer a critique of these kohakus as they compare to some of your fore mentioned breeders?

Richard

[JasPR]

Richard! Finally someone posts with an actual name!!! LOls
I have no problem being passionate and taking the risk of sounding aggressive or unkind. But only when I sense, correctly or incorrectly, that mis-information is creeping into the process. I mean , I’m not here to abuse people, just here for people when they need me to abuse them! LOls I think we all risk sounding too harsh or too aggressive when we are just being passionate. That is the limit of Internet communication I think? Humans really DO get a lot of grounding from tone, voice inflections, facial expression etc. None of that here on the Internet so the blanks get filled in and incorrect perceptions are created. A classic example of this is the sometimes innocent practice of typing in the upper case. It means nothing to the person doing it, yet the reading feels they are being shouted at. My close friends tease me about using so many of these ‘-- ’ and these, "-- " , when I write. But I think it helps communication thought and feelings?
I have to also admit that I do get nauseated by the syrupy sweet responses about how wonderful tateshita are or how fantastic really bad filter designs are etc. This, again, admittedly is my intolerance as an established hobbyist watching people 'kindly’ misleading others and as a result, dooming them to wander another year longer in the land of misunderstanding. Maybe I'm from the school of 'sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind' ? LOLs. At least my hearts in the right place and I'm not inclined to BS anyone or allow anyone to be BS'ed while I'm watching on the sidelines.
I think you know this Richard, but a lot of hobbyists identify and strongly support their personal dealer. It is an interesting phenomena. A kind of ‘enabling’ occurs that has the loyal customer supporting a 'friend' even if they know the truth is not being told. Its one of those people things I guess? Well enough of that–
I think the kohaku are very good. Really nice skin and soft beni. Not sure about how they would stack up to say momotaro or Sakai Hiroshima top fish? Just in the area of bone and ‘years of coating’ potential in the beni, I’d leave an lingering question mark. But nice fish all the same. So now we are down to price! Best, JR

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Richard! Finally someone posts with an actual name!!! LOls I have no problem being passionate and taking the risk of sounding aggressive or unkind. But only when I sense, correctly or incorrectly, that mis-information is creeping into the process. I mean , I’m not here to abuse people, just here for people when they need me to abuse them! ... JR

And that is EXACTLY why some of us love you. Never afraid to speak your mind, especially when the truth so desperately needs to be told.

And BTW... My name... REAL name, is in my sig

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear And that is EXACTLY why some of us love you. Never afraid to speak your mind, especially when the truth so desperately needs to be told. And BTW... My name... REAL name, is in my sig

Yeah, me too,

My name IS Russell Peters. LOL

[gspotmc]

Russ,
Thanks for posting those 5 pictures. They are of good quality. Anymore please Sir.
Michael Chua