Koi Are Dying!!! Please Help!!

[kelliewindham]

Quote: Originally Posted by kelliewindham NITRATE-20 NITRITE-0 GH-75 KH-40 PH-6.2 DOES THIS SOUND RIGHT? GIVE ME SEC TO CHECK AMMONIA.

FINISHED!! AMMONIA-0

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by kelliewindham FINISHED!! AMMONIA-0

Kellie

JR will figure this out. Just try to get him the info he asks for.

[mstrseed]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond 5., you may need to do a shotgun treatment.

Shaking head slowly

She has a PM from a KHA in Covington, La.

[cppond]

Quote: 5. If you can't scrape and scope, or get someone to do that for you, you may need to do a shotgun treatment. Someone should be able to help you with that if that becomes necessary.

Actually, that's what "5." said.

BTW, every time someone uses Proform C, it's a shotgun treatment.

[k.tran]

wouldnt making the water at 3% salinity help the fish also??

[svenni]

Hi,

I was just going through this thread and I am just wondering whether the green water or the oxygen content (maybe should be checked also) are really the cause of death. If the koi died from suffication (hope I spelled it right) they should all have died at the same time, shouldn't they?

What makes me curious is the fact that you entered the fish into a new pond. How was the pond constructed? I you used concrete that might be one of the reasons. There are a lot of hazardous substances in the concrete and you need to clean up the pond properly before entering new fishes. Here in Indonesia we use Banana tree stems (no joke) rubbing the walls and then fill water with new stems again and leave them for a couple of days. This is repeated a few times and we used to enter fishes after approx. 2 weeks.

You mentioned that some of the koi have rugged fins. Is it possible to get a photo of that. Rugged fins usually indicate bacterial infections and you need to treat it with an antibiotic (we use to give OTC or Enrofloxacine with the food).

Ok, pumps might be too small and fluctuation in the pH is possible because of the hardness, but that does not kill your koi (although it causes stress). We also have high water temps throughout the year (27 deg Celsius, 80 deg Fahrenheit?) and without an oxygen concentrator we reach some 6,8 mg/l oxygen content. But according to the numbers given I cannot believe that 6 small fishes in a 10.000 liter pond died of oxygen depriviation.

Anyway, I hope you can find the problem asap.

Good luck....

[svenni]

Quote: Originally Posted by k.tran wouldnt making the water at 3% salinity help the fish also??

Hi,

salinity helps the fish on the osmosis regulation and we found that 0,5% concentration does a better job.

[JasPR]

This is going to be most likely an environmental disease problem. So you have the original cause and you have the current situation with the fish as the environment ( original problem) has made the fish ill with secondary infection ( fin rot).

So we have a group here that has given advice as to how to 'fix the fish' and others have given advice as to how to fix the environment and still others are trying to get to the orginal cause and correct that.

If you jump in to help the fish here you need to be careful you do not 'destroy the evidence' as to the original cause or the fish will never get truly better.

There is no doubt in my mind that the source of the problem is going to be one of the following:
1) parasites
2) new pond syndrome leading to water quality issues
3) design issues with pond
4) pH dynamic due to agal activity/respiration ( its like a giant creature living in the pond at this point) and excess bacteric count due to dying algae. Algae is really a symptom of something else but at this point it has become a 'cause'.


So- remedies:

1) improve environment
a) continue daily water changes of 15%. This is now a water quality issue. OR a pH issue.
b) keep the filters very clean. Prefilters cleaned daily.
c) add aeration ( yes more- the water column needs to be mixed
d) get a UV light. I would normally reach for the baking soda with a pH of 6.2. But since it is your tap water also and since the other fish are fine in the other pond, I'm suspecting algae is dragging that pH up and down. we need to kill the algae.
e) move more of the filter media from the goldfish pond to this pond
f) create a simple trickle tower ( more later)
g) you can add some salt here- (a 50 pound bag of solar salt crystals will be enough)
h) this is new pond syndrome, among other things, and the filters need to be babied as they are not out-competing the algae. no feeding for a few days.

2) testing
a) keep an eye on the pH morning and night so it can be eliminated as a fundamental cause. Again, one of the main causes for fin rot can be pH swings or pH extremes.
b) scrape the fish and check for parasites. The likely culprits are among ich, costia, chilidonella or trichodina. I assume these fish were not quarantined.
c) get a check of the water temperature. Again, if this is a problem ( 86F plus water) add that trickle tower. I suspect the water temperature is not THE underlying problem but it can stress the fish further and encourage the green water problem.
d) continue to monitor your biofilter with ammonia and nirtite tests.

3) fish first aid
The fish could be dying for multiple reasons ( gas issues, pH issues, maybe parasites, etc) but they are also showing wear and tear from the experience of water problems with a secondary bacterial disease on the fins. They need VERY clean water and some treatments. The problem is, most of these treatments are going to make the pond condition worse as you attempt to effect the fish's problem. This is the 'rock and the hard spot' you have found yourself in.
a) check and treat for parasites. The KHA can do this for you.
b) treat the fin rot ( and check gills for gill rot) there are many baths you can give these fish as 90% of the time this is a pseudomonas infection or flexibacter infection. The KHA might be able to help here? Supporting this with antibiotic injections is not mandatory but helpful if you can manage it.
c) osmotic issues, good water and mild salt.
d) algae will put all sorts of gases in the water as it dies. Once the pH issue is identifed or eliminated as a underlying cause, do set up that trickle tower and manybe add some activated carbon in the top to reduce organics for a while. The fish need VERY clean water right now to heal themselves.

JR

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR This is going to be most likely an environmental disease problem. So you have the original cause and you have the current situation with the fish as the environment ( original problem) has made the fish ill with secondary infection ( fin rot). So we have a group here that has given advice as to how to 'fix the fish' and others have given advice as to how to fix the environment and still others are trying to get to the orginal cause and correct that. If you jump in to help the fish here you need to be careful you do not 'destroy the evidence' as to the original cause or the fish will never get truly better. There is no doubt in my mind that the source of the problem is going to be one of the following: 1) parasites 2) new pond syndrome leading to water quality issues 3) design issues with pond 4) pH dynamic due to agal activity/respiration ( its like a giant creature living in the pond at this point) and excess bacteric count due to dying algae. Algae is really a symptom of something else but at this point it has become a 'cause'. So- remedies: 1) improve environment a) continue daily water changes of 15%. This is now a water quality issue. OR a pH issue. b) keep the filters very clean. Prefilters cleaned daily. c) add aeration ( yes more- the water column needs to be mixed d) get a UV light. I would normally reach for the baking soda with a pH of 6.2. But since it is your tap water also and since the other fish are fine in the other pond, I'm suspecting algae is dragging that pH up and down. we need to kill the algae. e) move more of the filter media from the goldfish pond to this pond f) create a simple trickle tower ( more later) g) you can add some salt here- (a 50 pound bag of solar salt crystals will be enough) h) this is new pond syndrome, among other things, and the filters need to be babied as they are not out-competing the algae. no feeding for a few days. 2) testing a) keep an eye on the pH morning and night so it can be eliminated as a fundamental cause. Again, one of the main causes for fin rot can be pH swings or pH extremes. b) scrape the fish and check for parasites. The likely culprits are among ich, costia, chilidonella or trichodina. I assume these fish were not quarantined. c) get a check of the water temperature. Again, if this is a problem ( 86F plus water) add that trickle tower. I suspect the water temperature is not THE underlying problem but it can stress the fish further and encourage the green water problem. d) continue to monitor your biofilter with ammonia and nirtite tests. 3) fish first aid The fish could be dying for multiple reasons ( gas issues, pH issues, maybe parasites, etc) but they are also showing wear and tear from the experience of water problems with a secondary bacterial disease on the fins. They need VERY clean water and some treatments. The problem is, most of these treatments are going to make the pond condition worse as you attempt to effect the fish's problem. This is the 'rock and the hard spot' you have found yourself in. a) check and treat for parasites. The KHA can do this for you. b) treat the fin rot ( and check gills for gill rot) there are many baths you can give these fish as 90% of the time this is a pseudomonas infection or flexibacter infection. The KHA might be able to help here? Supporting this with antibiotic injections is not mandatory but helpful if you can manage it. c) osmotic issues, good water and mild salt. d) algae will put all sorts of gases in the water as it dies. Once the pH issue is identifed or eliminated as a underlying cause, do set up that trickle tower and manybe add some activated carbon in the top to reduce organics for a while. The fish need VERY clean water right now to heal themselves. JR

Excellent analysis, JR. I just wanted to point out that the source water appears to have nitrates, and I wonder if it could also have phosphates?

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond Excellent analysis, JR. I just wanted to point out that the source water appears to have nitrates, and I wonder if it could also have phosphates?

Edit: Also, at what point, if any, does she need to address the kh issue?