Variety classification

[koiboi31]

My guess as to why a white bellied Karasugoi is better would be simply that the red in koi came much later than white.

white is a foundation colour and the red was bred in from later on - so to finish it would mean that the white Bellied karsugoi is purer - from an older better line potentailly????

[JasPR]

close enough!

The black nishikigoi with a white belly, represents the second degree of karasugoi. That is, a mutation with a second mutation! This is a fish that is delevoping the white spreading gene.
From this fish we next get :
1) Hajiro- the 'same fish' but with white spreading into the fins ( tail and tips of pecs)

Then from there we get:
2) Hagashiro- same as hajiro but now we see white speading also onto the head

Then from there we get:
3) Yotsushiro - the same as Hagashiro only now we seen the dorsal and caudal fins with white spreading gene influence/expression.

These all represent genetic progression/expression of the white spreading gene on a hyper melanistic morph of common carp.

From here the karasui clan produces pattern variation in two varieties as the white spreading gene invades further into the hyper melanistic skin ( Suminagashi and matsukawabake) and finally, doitsu us added to produce a second level of the clan in doitsu versions.

- JR

[Fishbreeder]

Originally Posted by gregbickal

GR Matsakawabaki is what I got from last years spawning of Gin Soragoi female to Regular Kohaku.

That's funny.....I did the reciprocal cross to that one....soragoi female to ginrin kohaku male. I got mostly soragoi (fish bait quality), but a few ochiba, dang few ginrin ochiba (what I was after) and a few ginrin soragoi. Won;t do that one again!

This year a variation....ochiba female to ginrin kohaku male. We'll see....

The fish in the pic looks like a ginrin matsukawabake to me.

Brett

[Spudsy]

ok as we are splitting hairs, can someone please tell me the paring to obtain matsukawabake maurice cox of koi uk asked me if i knew because he found several in a pond, he will not call them matsukawabake untill he knows the parent koi, ie. he will not call them matsukawabake untill he knows he has the parent stock to produce them... i called them scaled kumonryu because basicly thats what they are, matsukawabake came first, then the doitsu versions came later kumonryu, this is my understanding atleast, anyway all i need to know is the pairing used to obtain them, thank you

[Fishbreeder]

Lots of ways to get matsukawabake!

What the heck does that mean anyhow??????

Pine River-something. Matsu's-name of every sushi house in East Texas Piney Woods.

Mostly you get matsukawabake whilst in the pursuit of kumonryu. So, you can get there with kumonryu, shusui, hajiro, karasu, and outcrosses to these from other breeds, doitsu and wagoi versions.

Just because you got doitsu parents doesn;t mean you ain;t gonna git no wagoi.



Doitsu scales exhibit simple Mendhalian inheritance, so it is predictable.

You will get wagoi out of any doitsu cross except leather x leather.

Some crosses producing matsukawabake includes...

Matsukawabake to itself.

Matsukawabake to asagi.

Hajiro to asagi.

Hajiro to other hajiro types (hageshiro etc.)

I'm certain that matsukawabake types can show up as "sports" from several other crosses.

Brett

[Spudsy]

thanks, so there isnt really a 'golden rule' to obtaining them, you would just pick the most likey mix of parent from the ones you suggested and cull hard to obtain a high percentage of matsukawabake, i would assume this is what japanese breeders would also do?

or would thay have 2 matsukawabake parents to keep the numbers of potential matsukawabake fry up?

[JasPR]

Hey Spudsy, I have a scaled shusui for sale, interested? - JR

[Spudsy]

not really into them scaled shusui but they are better than the non scaled ones haha

the last doitsu i liked the look of was these ginrn ones
http://www.thekoikeepers.com/gallery...&g2_itemId=400 and this one too http://www.thekoikeepers.com/gallery...serialNumber=3

[JasPR]

Spudsy, here are two I used to own. One is a doitsu and the other is scaled ( although you'd hardly know it)

[mstrseed]

You got some cool Koi JR.............................................