Variety classification

[PRYML]

Can anyone help in clarifying the variety of the following Tosai? It was sold to me by the dealer as Ginrin Hajiro bred by Kaneko. However, as I understand it, according to the Manual to Nishikigoi by Takeo Kuroki, "Hajiro" means a "black koi" with white pectoral fins only. A ZNA endorsed Koi poster also categorises it as Ginrin "Hageshiro". The Manual to Nishikigoi also defines a "black koi" with white head and fins (both pectoral and dorsal) as "Yotsushiro"...

To add to the confusion, a US website labelled similar looking Koi as Ginrin Hijaro (note that "i" and "a" switched places; spelling mistake?)... though the majority of websites has it under Ginrin Hajiro. Has the term Hajiro come to now include Hageshiro, Yotsushiro etc rendering the other terms obselete?

The Tosai is solid black in the pectoral area which breaks up into kanoko-like patterns as it spreads up above the lateral line....

[Brutuscz]

My best guess is a ginrin matsubawake. I've also seen it called a ginga on some websites. Very nice fish!!!

[MikeM]

The label "Hajiro" is often used to refer to the whole group of old-type black koi with white patterning. Gets confusing when you are thinking of the specific color/pattern version pictured in the books as Hajiro. I like the specifity of precise usage, but in so many ways these are relics of the past... a time when slight variations of patterning was different enough to lead to a new name and some degree of excitement.

I think your photo is a Ginrin Matsukawabake in a color transition period. But, somebody will call it Ginrin Suminigashi ...just be cute.

[PRYML]

Originally Posted by Brutuscz

My best guess is a ginrin matsubawake. I've also seen it called a ginga on some websites. Very nice fish!!!

Aren't Matsukawabake like scaled Kumonryu, hence colors change/reverse in direct relation to water temperature/hardness? I haven't really noticed such changes in the Tosai even though I've left it at the dealer's premises abroad (where the climate is tropical and water temperature's relatively warm all year round) whilst considering the construction of a new pond. I bought it last January at 39cm, and it grew another 3cm in 3 months, during the last bowling/viewing; possible advantage of being outdoors in a tropical climate, or is it just the growth spurt at this stage of it's life cycle?

[PRYML]

Originally Posted by MikeM

I think your photo is a Ginrin Matsukawabake in a color transition period. But, somebody will call it Ginrin Suminigashi ...just be cute.

On last viewing, the "white" seems to be "blossoming" even as the black receeds lower and "solidifies". It also occured to me that having more black on the lateral surface makes it seem that it's more male in conformation, regardless of the actual gender; just like how women tends to "shed weight" in a flattering black dress

Hmmm... "Fatter" Koi might actually look better when clad in black

[dick benbow]

Haijiro is translated " bird wing " and has to do with where and how much white is positioned on a black body. Yotsu is in 4 areas......what you have as already identified is a GR matsukawbake.

It's about my favorite fish and while I think most modern day folks think of it in terms of a scaled kumonryu....they came first before doutsu.They never got popular tho it was my first variety of koi when i started the hobby to fall in love with. A couple of years ago I bred them and they are georgeous. The nicest one I've seen in the flesh is owned by Dan Blatt in olympia washington


just for the record...matsukawabake got it's name because it was produced in a small villiage in a pine forest by the river

matsu is pine, kawa was the river, bake means variable...changes from black to white with temps as a youngster, they become more stable with age

[Brutuscz]

This is my new one. About 7-8 inches. Bred by Blackwater creek. Still in quarantine. I am hoping the body fills out...looks too thin right now.

[schildkoi]

For show purposes, its real easy...."Gin Rin B"..


GR Matsakawabaki
Neat looking Koi. Pictures are tough to "judge" a koi by to say the least. Does it have Gine Rin Scales up to and on the "ridge line"? May GR koi are lacking GR scales in this area. Also, is the GR "brushed" back? That would be 2 of the major components for judging this koi.

Steve

[PRYML]

Originally Posted by dick benbow

It's about my favorite fish and while I think most modern day folks think of it in terms of a scaled kumonryu....they came first before doutsu.They never got popular tho it was my first variety of koi when i started the hobby to fall in love with. A couple of years ago I bred them and they are georgeous. The nicest one I've seen in the flesh is owned by Dan Blatt in olympia washington

In general, I get bored very easily and have trouble staying focused on any single interest for any great length of time; hence, it's the transient state of Koi, during it's development, is what has kept me engrossed in the hobby. And that was during a time when I had no inkiling of the existence of Matsukawabake/Kumonryu!

Now that I'm not as ignorant, I find myself inevitably drawn to the more obvious transient states of Matsukawabake/Kumonryu.

You wouldn't happen to have a picture of Mr Blatt's koi, do u?

[PRYML]

Originally Posted by Brutuscz

This is my new one. About 7-8 inches. Bred by Blackwater creek. Still in quarantine. I am hoping the body fills out...looks too thin right now.

Thanks for posting pictures of your recent acquisition. Hopefully, you'll be able to post more pictures of the Koi's development in this thread, so we can all see how they develop pattern-wise, rate of growth etc

To date, being based in a tropical/equatorial climate restricts my experience with Koi that tend to look their best in colder climate, and I look forward to more info about them.

Earlier this year, I was a offered a Kumonryu that was a show winner at a breeder's show in Japan but it didn't look like it's show-winning best after being relocated to our warmer waters. Even so, I'm still considering it...

Some people here will still buy a not so good-looking imported Kumonryu merely based on the Feng Shui significance of it name i.e. the auspicious Dragon