English Style Koi Shows A New Era

[Tim C]

Don, good post, but I feel the need to elaborate on your comments - from my perspective

[quote=KoiCop;81957]An interesting thread. A few personal observations:

* Only a few will gravitate towards the upper echelons of the hobby -- most won't. Oh, well. This is a true statement, but why is this? Some would say it monetary, others, education, and yet others, something differing.

* While koi shows can be described as education disguised as competition, they are put on by and for the upper echelons of the hobby. No one else really cares enough. I think one must define upper echelons - from what I have gathered in my limited time in the hobby the 'upper echelon' do not show, and their koi are rarely seen unless it is by friends. I guess there are exceptions, but for the most part, I believe that either the upper echelon chooses to raise and show in Japan or to just maintain a private collection.

* Some folks will aspire to our level in the hobby, not vice versa. Outreach, shmoutreach, the upper echelons of this hobby ain’t for everyone. We’re not talking stamp collecting here, people. Correct - it is not for everyone, but I dont believe everyone should strive to be in the upper echelon, rather, know their limitations and strive to enjoy the hobby within those confines - sometimes easier said that done.

* Recruiting water gardeners into our clubs won't change the equilibrium -- and they won't be there to help when it comes time to put on our shows. Why should they? Sometimes this can be a good thing. Many, to include myself started with a small puddle - mainly due to ignorance.

* Because the upper echelons of the hobby require land, disposable income and time, it attracts a certain demographic -- ergo, youngsters, inner-city types and the cash-strapped will always be scarce at the upper echelons. Makes sense to me. Again, true statement - the hobby can be expensive, especially when one goes after the top 10% of the Koi in a year.

* If you want to show you should belong to your local club and/or help put on your local show. Otherwise, you’re a leech on the hobby. Going back to my first opinion - if it is true that many of the upper echelon are more on the private side, I believe that it would be rare to see them participating in a show or a club.

* Never saw a Japanese-style show and no doubt never will. English-style works for me. Me either - English style, in today's age is more secure for the koi and the owners.

* Time and effort put into making koi shows easier on the koi and on the competitors is time and effort well spent. On the other hand, trying to turn koi shows into spectator events? Well, . . . IMHO it will never happen. Why? Well I think that many who have been to shows or rather who have had the opportunity to shadow know what I am speaking about.[/quote]

[svenni]

Hi,

I live in Indonesia and joined quite a few competitions here already. In April I also participated at the "Interkoi" (the European ZNA show) to see how competitive the indonesian koi are. At the German show all participants have their own basin in which all sizes and varieties are entered and the judges walk from pond to pond to make their decisions on the winners. After judging was over a lot of people were not really happy with the decisions made and I think that it is very difficult foir the judges to make a fair decision.

In Indonesia all koi competing in the same class are packed in "stay clear" plastic bags (no idea about the correct term) and placed side by side in the judging area. The judges select the top 5 koi and from these 5 koi they choose 1st, 2nd and 3rd. All non-winning koi will be back in their basin soon after judging. This system is much faster and more easy for the judges. And I have very rarely seen anyone disagreeing with the decisions. For the sizes above 50cm the koi are still judged either in their tank or in bowls that are brought to the judging area so that all competitors can be viewed side by side (that depends on the organiser).

I do not know what is usually paid for the fish entry in the US. In Germany it was only 12 Euros per fish. In Indonesia we pay between 20 and 90 USD per fish depending on it's size plus approx 100 USD for each tank. The organisers usually have main sponsors that get certain advertising in return. By doing this the clubs can afford to hire some "fulltimers" that do a major part of the workload.

The problem that I have noticed is that nowadays there are too many shows and fish entries decrease (but we still have around 850-1000 koi for the main shows). On the other hand Indonesia seems still a rising market for koi hobbyists whereas in the US the boom might be over for a while already. But I am sure that there is a significant number of serious hobbyists that will remain on the scene.

[JasPR]

Not sure about the bag idea as it was created to stop spread of KHV and not for the benefit of the judges. It is true they are side by side, but the bag makes natural viewing impossible. And part of good judging is about seeing the fish swim. Many deformities and faults can be hidden in those bags that would be easily detected if the fish is swimming. In a koi show we judge the whole fish and not just the color or the beni characteristics.


But I agree that there are too many OPEN shows. You can control disease and increase membership participation within a CLOSED show. This is not great for business or for grandeur but the local closed show is the best way to strengthen the hobby from within, one chapter at a time. And certainly one regional show a year is more than enough based on the number of exhibitors in any one region. There seems to be a healthy competition growing among regions for bigger and more impressive trade type venues. It does draw people, but it also seems to have elements of a three ring circus at times?? Maybe this is due to a lack of focus? Goldfish and water garden barrel judging, lawn furnisher, and longfins might bring the numbers and the revenue but where is the focus?

I guess I'm saying that quality is more important than quantity, IMHO. JR

[PapaBear]

Lets face it. There is some truth to all of whats been posted thus far.
Many top tier Koi Keepers don't show. Bad experiences in past shows due to transportation problems, health and injury issues with expensive fish, petty politics... It is also inevitable that some simply aren't interested in showing at all and chose to simply maintain a beautiful pond full of show quality fish that will never be seen except by themselves and their friends. All these things can come into play and to each his own. But that doesn't change the fact that there are also many at the top who do show, do work behind the scenes at shows, and also those at the bottom who work at them as well.
Those of us with thin wallets can still be Kichi enough to care, even if our collections are less than top tier. This year at OKC there were several people working at the show who didn't show, including ourselves. We have only 3 fish from top quality Japanese brood stock, and 2 of them were gifts. (The one we actually paid for is the poorest of the 3) The rest are humble pond grade Koi, half of which were born in our pond. Not exactly the stuff "top tier" is made of, but we are still willing and able to be part of a club, help with shows, learn from the best, and emulate them in every way our finances will allow. One of the things that has made this possible for us is the fact that we have been welcomed and accepted with open arms by other members whose collections and experience far exceed our wildest dreams. We are not treated as "less than" members, and enjoy the new friendships we are developing as much as we do the Koi.
Next year we do plan to show a few if they are ready, but we have no illusions of GC contention. Simply the desire to participate in a bigger way and learn from the experience so we can continue polishing our skill AND our collection.
Can Koi shows be better marketed to the general public? Sure they can. There will always be a limited number of people even remotely interested, and most of them will be water gardeners... but that is where and how many among us began.

[svenni]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Not sure about the bag idea as it was created to stop spread of KHV and not for the benefit of the judges. It is true they are side by side, but the bag makes natural viewing impossible. And part of good judging is about seeing the fish swim. Many deformities and faults can be hidden in those bags that would be easily detected if the fish is swimming. In a koi show we judge the whole fish and not just the color or the beni characteristics.

Yes, the bag issue came up because of KHV but it had the positive side effect of a faster and more accurate judging. About deformities I do not think that it can be hidden if the fish is in a bag. And what other faults can be found if the fish is swimming? Injuries in the lower part of the body could (and are) better detected than in a pond. On all major shows we have ZNA judges coming over from Japan. I don't think they are just judging colours and patterns. BTW, when I was having a look into the tanks during the show in Germany in around 50% of the tanks the fishes try to hide under the water inlet and it is not that easy to see them properly.

One more thing, the GC in Germany is deformed as well, eventhough they it was judged while swimming in a tank In my personal opinion an absolute scandal!

[Jeff Speck]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR you tend to loose credibility/weighting in your opinions as a result. It is just the way it is. In this hobby you need to be in it to win in your opinions. Otherwise you are a monday morning arm chair quarterback. I enjoy reading your comments- I do. But you need to realize that you are a sideline commentator at best. The decisions and direction of the clubs and the organizations go to those 'in the game'. Again, just the way it is--

Huh? Not sure why that was necessary... Floating ideas on a message board about a hobby means I claimed political clout or thought I was in it to win it or expected to influence "the decisions and directions of the clubs and the organizations" ? LOL. Well, OK then, how about I go right on being an armchair nobody at best and just try to keep in mind what I "need to realize" about the zero net worth of my comments here? “All due respect” to you too…

[JasPR]

Good morning Jeff. Isn't there a happy medium between lurker and advisor?

JR

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck So much truth in what you said, Mike. In my first few years in the hobby that has been the biggest surprise to me--the amount of whispering and division in the koi community. I wasn't sure I had thick enough skin so I've already taken a major u-turn and gotten much less active in the club and the message boards, and left the KHA program as well. And to my delight that freed up more time for my own pond, and my family too!

Jeff, It was really nice meeting you in san Diego this year. You did a great job handling all the advertising and publicity for the show. I am sorry to hear that since then, you did a U-turn. I think at some point we all have done the same thing. At times the politics, and division within our own clubs can be enough, for even the thickest skined people to take a backseat and regroup.

[Jeff Speck]

Good morning, Jim. No, there is only a happy lurker who is occasionally compelled to comment in a manner that you don't approve of. Nancy starts a thread about declining participation, and MikeM's response is petty politics--and it's funny because this is that exact type of competitive, puffed-up rooster BS that turns people off, and I guess turns people into 'leeches on the hobby.' Maybe we resolute lurkers are what the Good Kings of Koi make us ?

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck So much truth in what you said, Mike. In my first few years in the hobby that has been the biggest surprise to me--the amount of whispering and division in the koi community. I wasn't sure I had thick enough skin so I've already taken a major u-turn and gotten much less active in the club and the message boards, and left the KHA program as well. And to my delight that freed up more time for my own pond, and my family too!

Hey I am with you 100% percent on the club thing. I recently quit my club or position and membership. I was without a club for 15 years, the one year I was with club it was a headache. Do I regret recruiting for the club? YES..I still think there is a journey a hobbyist has to make and I really think you can enjoy it without a club...Also there is nothing wrong with being "Private Hobbyist"...