English Style Koi Shows A New Era

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. Jeff, It was really nice meeting you in san Diego this year. You did a great job handling all the advertising and publicity for the show. I am sorry to hear that since then, you did a U-turn. I think at some point we all have done the same thing. At times the politics, and division within our own clubs can be enough, for even the thickest skined people to take a backseat and regroup.

Nancy I dont know how you put up with all the club BS.

[mstrseed]

Nancy,

I have never seen nor participated in a show where the koi swam together. The first show I went to was San Antonio and a commit was made about the picking of the CG by the Judges. It was kinda like this......It may have been a easier choice if the 2 koi in contention were at least in tanks next to one another as opposed to one on one end and the other at the other end of the arena. I think they were discussing a size difference, but the quality won over at least 2 judges.
But if that is the cost of keeping koi safe, let it be so.

I know no other way, It works for me.

[JasPR]

jeff, you seem very bitter? Anything I can do to help?

Sav, I have to disagree and restate my position that bag judging is not a great way to go. The extra time is no problem for the judges. And certainly bent backs and bulges in the side of fish can be consealed until the fish swims. Another important point is ZNA judges also judge fish on presence and elegance- both 'moving' traits.
Not sure why, but I have seen more deformed koi entered in shows in Germany and Holland than another other country. Not sure why that is, but it is the show that must educate the consumer by eliminating these deformed fish from the competition. Were the judges in Germany Shinkokai or ZNA? JR

[mitten]

I'm not sure, but I believe the Gentleman from Florida was just called a "puffed up rooster." I am having a wonderful time thinking of MikeM as a puffed up rooster. I will never look at Mike again and see anything but a puffed up rooster. No longer is he a guppy guy or a tilandsia guy. Nevermore a lover of yamabuki and a student of showa.

Nope. Wait. A gentleman he is. Can't change facts, Brother Jeff.

A horrible load of misinterpretation is evident. This must be the periodic rifts and upheavels JR has described.

[JasPR]

Aquitori! O noooo! You Too?!! we need you, bud!

It is true, you can enjoy koi all by your lonesome.

The sound of one hand clapping.
The tree falling in the forest.
A secret collection in a secret garden.

JR,
Koi God, Knight of Ni, and fellow club member of Mike M! LOls

[KoiCop]

Tim . . .

Glad to see we’ve got a dialogue going here! A few responses for your consideration:

• Only a few will gravitate towards the upper echelons of the hobby -- most won't. Oh, well.

This is a true statement, but why is this? Some would say it monetary, others, education, and yet others, something differing.

Why? For many of the same reasons that only a few will strive for the top in other animal husbandry ‘collect & compete’ hobbies (e.g., dog shows, cat shows, horse shows, etc.).

* While koi shows can be described as education disguised as competition, they are put on by and for the upper echelons of the hobby. No one else really cares enough.

I think one must define upper echelons - from what I have gathered in my limited time in the hobby the 'upper echelon' do not show, and their koi are rarely seen unless it is by friends. I guess there are exceptions, but for the most part, I believe that either the upper echelon chooses to raise and show in Japan or to just maintain a private collection.

Sorry, Tim, but since we’re talking about koi shows here, private hobbyists who don’t show are non-factors insofar as any ‘put on by and for’ discussions.

* Some folks will aspire to our level in the hobby, not vice versa. Outreach, shmoutreach, the upper echelons of this hobby ain’t for everyone. We’re not talking stamp collecting here, people.

Correct - it is not for everyone, but I don’t believe everyone should strive to be in the upper echelon, rather, know their limitations and strive to enjoy the hobby within those confines - sometimes easier said that done.

Tim, I couldn’t agree more. I’m talking about koi shows and show koi being the upper echelon here. Like I told Jeff in another post, we've only shown 4 times and always in the smaller sizes. Our first time was just 18 months ago, so we're very much newbies. We know our limitations and we’re definitely niche showers.

* Recruiting water gardeners into our clubs won't change the equilibrium -- and they won't be there to help when it comes time to put on our shows. Why should they?

Sometimes this can be a good thing. Many, to include myself started with a small puddle - mainly due to ignorance.

Guess I didn’t make my point too well, which is strictly about getting out the work force for shows. Within any club, folks who keep and show koi have different interest and incentive levels from water gardeners when it comes to putting in the hours necessary to put on a koi show because the former is going to show while the latter is not.

FYI, we started with an 800 gallon rock-bottomed water garden, too, but didn’t join a koi club until we were interested in showing koi.

* Because the upper echelons of the hobby require land, disposable income and time, it attracts a certain demographic -- ergo, youngsters, inner-city types and the cash-strapped will always be scarce at the upper echelons. Makes sense to me.

Again, true statement - the hobby can be expensive, especially when one goes after the top 10% of the Koi in a year.

Right you are.

* If you want to show you should belong to your local club and/or help put on your local show. Otherwise, you’re a leech on the hobby.

Going back to my first opinion - if it is true that many of the upper echelon are more on the private side, I believe that it would be rare to see them participating in a show or a club.

Again, the first five words of this point say it all: If you want to show . . . So non-showing private hobbyists are a non-factor here. I’m talking about the folks who enter their koi in shows without supporting the club or helping to put on the show. They’re like the folks who show up at pot-luck dinners time and time again -- without ever bringing a dish.

* Never saw a Japanese-style show and no doubt never will. English-style works for me.

Me either - English style, in today's age is more secure for the koi and the owners.

Still, even I get nostalgic when they talk about Japanese-style shows. LOL

* Time and effort put into making koi shows easier on the koi and on the competitors is time and effort well spent. On the other hand, trying to turn koi shows into spectator events? Well . . .

IMHO it will never happen. Why? Well I think that many who have been to shows or rather who have had the opportunity to shadow know what I am speaking about.

Yeah, Tim, explaining koi shows to folks whose knowledge of fish only extends to fishing poles and fry pans is a tough reach. Using video feed to explain white vs. black based fish, to differentiate color, pattern, skin & scale varieties, and to describe conformation and quality in ways that a complete neophyte can understand? Good luck!

“Nice lookin’ fish, Mr. How much per lb. does it sell for?”

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck . . . and I guess turns people into 'leeches on the hobby.'

Jeff . . .

You're quoting me out of context -- badly out of context. You trying to pick a fight, again?

I said: If you want to show you should belong to your local club and/or help put on your local show. Otherwise, you’re a leech on the hobby. [emphasis added -- DPC]

As I told Tim:

Again, the first five words of this point say it all: If you want to show . . . So non-showing private hobbyists are a non-factor here. I’m talking about the folks who enter their koi in shows without supporting the club or helping to put on the show. They’re like the folks who show up at pot-luck dinners time and time again -- without ever bringing a dish.

I know you busted your hump putting on the San Diego Show and I wasn't describing you.

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tim C * While koi shows can be described as education disguised as competition, they are put on by and for the upper echelons of the hobby. No one else really cares enough. I think one must define upper echelons - from what I have gathered in my limited time in the hobby the 'upper echelon' do not show, and their koi are rarely seen unless it is by friends. I guess there are exceptions, but for the most part, I believe that either the upper echelon chooses to raise and show in Japan or to just maintain a private collection.

Hi Tim I think I can take a crack at defining what Don is referring to. The people you are referring to are kind of like the 'upper upper echelon'. They either used to show and no longer have the time or the drive (or maybe they already have enough GC trophies) to show. Yes they have some great koi and are some the top keepers around. But really they don't show anymore so they really aren't what Dons is talking about. It would be nice to see some of their koi come out to shows but its probably not going to happen. So I guess the question would be then how do you keep the current upper echelon from going away or from just showing in Japan and keep them involved in the shows here? And to define upper echelon? Simple. Check out the lists of names that show up in the winners circle multiple times at multple shows for the last few years.

Like Don I am a newbie to the show circuit and I enjoy it very much. All my koi also compete in the smaller classes as I don't have the money or skill to compete above size 4 or so. And thats right I said "skill". In this "fast food", "instant gratification" society it is hard for show newbies or club newbies to slow down and learn the skills that will take them to the next level of showing. Sure you can go out and buy a GC ready to show and win but at the risk of ruining the fish and burning out fast? It's like getting drivers license one day and then buying a Porsche the next(its not going to end nicely). Unfortunately that seems to happen pretty regularly though in the koi world. Take a look at the koi boards for example. People will come in and get excited and post a ton and then leave and we never see them again. But why do they leave the boards? I don't know but I suspect some of the reasons apply to clubs and shows as well. Those of us that have been around internet forums for a while see people come and go all the time and what I think us grizzled veterans of the boards and clubs(although I'm kind of a newbie to koi clubs as well but I've been on internet forums for a looonnnggg time) is to look for people we can help and help them. Single in on a few individuals and help them instead of trying to solve the overall problem. If we all make an effort to help a few select people along then there will always be plenty of people for shows and club membership. I mean really, not every water gardener wants to be a koi keeper but when we see one that does we should help them advance in their hobby at a pace that is maintainable (thanks to Joe, Tony, Nancy and the rest of Koi-Unit for getting me to slow down so I didn't burn out fast like so many others have).

Edit- Don, we were posting at the same time

[KoiCop]

MikeM said: The progress of the koi hobby in the U.S. seems to me to have resulted in more divisions and differences as kichi become self-segregated from the more casual koikeepers and their watergardens.

I agree. And as kichi koi and kichi ponds become more and more removed from those of casual koikeepers and their water gardens, the chasm will only become wider and deeper. That's perfectly natural and understandable.

So, how much has that contributed to the decline of several Koi & WG clubs (both ZNA and AKCA) here in SoCal? I can only surmise. But I have heard that some of them quit putting on shows and/or went inactive because (in part) there just weren't enough folks to git-r-done.

I'm hoping some of these inactive SoCal clubs will eventually consolidate. By combining all these dedicated koi kichi, their treasuries and their equipment, just think of the super club we could put together.

[Jeff Speck]

Quote: Originally Posted by mitten I'm not sure, but I believe the Gentleman from Florida was just called a "puffed up rooster." I am having a wonderful time thinking of MikeM as a puffed up rooster. I will never look at Mike again and see anything but a puffed up rooster. No longer is he a guppy guy or a tilandsia guy. Nevermore a lover of yamabuki and a student of showa. Nope. Wait. A gentleman he is. Can't change facts, Brother Jeff. A horrible load of misinterpretation is evident. This must be the periodic rifts and upheavels JR has described.

Oh, good lord no, I wasn't saying that about MikeM. I thought his post was the best one in the thread. It was the pecking order that later needed to be established.

No, JR, not bitter in the least. We're having pancakes over here.