Please report failures / bottom drains

[KoiCop]

Brutuscz . . .

You're in the proverbial hole and it's time to stop digging.

Run whatever patchwork system you want on your pond, but don't argue with the good folks who know what they're talking about that your workarounds are just as good as a proper system. They're not.

That kind of defensive twaddle won't pass muster. Not on this board.

So, please: You only make yourself look silly.

[gregbickal]

Quote: Then I change or clean the pad

Men were not meant to change and or clean pads Oh man, that one was soooo easy... Admit it, who else laughed

I don't understand what the big deal is, put in a bottom drain and move on.
As mitten would say "with one hand tied behind my back" and I'll add "hanging upside down"

[Brutuscz]

Changing pads....LOL..alright, asked for that one.
Still don't see it as a patchwork anything. I have a local retailer with a 12,000gal pond. Same system with no bottom drain for 6 years. All the koi are 20-30inches..grown out in that pond. All are beautiful and healthy. Water pumped from the bottom..similar to what I am doing. My last pond was 7,000gal...ran for 7 yrs with a pump at the bottom. Only issue I had with sick fish was when a dealer sold me a fish that gave mine columnaris. Other than that...no issue with the system or health (no more ulcers or infections than anyone else on this board).
My point..The term PROPER koi pond is laughable. What is proper? Pad and J-mat filters, beads, vortex, nexus, bakki shower...Ask anyone who owns one of these, and they'll tell you their system is PROPER!!! I saw the same thing in the reef hobby. I did saltwater and reef for 15 yrs..it was undergravel filter, wet/dry, deep sand beds, heavy protein skimming, algae filters, plenums..What was proper changed many times. Wet/dry was all the rage..then we were told the bioballs increase nitrates. Switch to deep sand beds and protein skimming....then long term sand beds were no good.

I've been keeping fish for 28 years...and I realize that each system has it's strong and weak points. My conclusion...ammonia=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=10, tds=50...fish are healthy and growing fine, Then my system is proper by any standard. If your water measurements are MUCH better..I'd love to see the numbers!!

[Seefdro Tvneik]

Well, I think it comes down to efficiency....

Brutuscz I think your system will work and has proved it can to you. Except I believe you spend a lot more time to keep your pond a healthy environment. Especially with many large koi calling it home. It seems you have the time to vacuum and change pads on a frequent basis........... You probably make water regular changes. Chances are your system will function effectively. Is it optimum????? Probably not.

I do believe a BD system is a more effective and a less time consuming system.

Brutuscz you did say you would like to have a BD in your system but are too chicken ........So it a seems you do think they are probably more effective.

[Brutuscz]

Yes...I definitely believe they are more effective..100%. My system is more labor intensive...but still very functional. After knowing someone who had a leak in the middle of the winter..that required her koi to learn to walk and breath air..I am definitely worried the same thing may happen to me. The winters in New England are damn cold..and a pipe could crack very easily if not installed perfectly. I may need to do more maintenance to keep the system as good as some others... but, I can sleep at night, all winter, knowing this scenario will never be a problem of mine.
Just to add...The system that suffered this leak was done by a professional...and cost a ton of money$$$
I am one of those people who wears a belt and suspenders..I have 2 pumps running my system..in case 1 fails. Two air pumps running..in case one fails. Three UV sterilizers..in case one fails. The 2 air pumps run all winter..with 3 heaters floating...ready to be plugged in...in case anything fails!!! Sounds like overkill, but when your astrological sign is feces..you tend to expect the worst..lol.

[moikoi]

Brutuscz....did you read this thread?

You Guys Wouldn't Believe This... - KoiShack

[mitten]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz when your astrological sign is feces..you tend to expect the worst..lol.

This I understand! No need for Keokoi to translate that one for anybody. But, you still are not addressing the bottom drain issue head on. Your aquaintance's leak doesn't even qualify. It was a pipe and not the connection of the bottom drain or the concept that failed. The concept of bottom drains as well as any other concept can fail when applied by idiots.

Many folks have pumps in their ponds. True. We all know that. Brutus, which is better?

Still looking for a bottom drain leak.

[Brutuscz]

What that guy is doing is a time bomb...no doubt. My setup is completely different. I do think the bottom drain is excellent, great and all that..I just know the broken pipe thing will happen. It happened to my pool..and the hot tub at my old house. It's like tempting fate for me. By vacuuming regularly and doing water changes..I avert the problem of poop and mulm build up. It's more work..but I don't mind doing it. My filtration does a good job of keeping the water quality excellent. I am addressing the bottom drain/poop collection issue with manual labor. If the bottom of my pond is free of waste..and the bottom of your pond is free of waste..I don't see a problem brewing. It doesn't matter to me how it was removed...as long as it is removed. If I got lazy..well, then we have a very different story..and you would be absolutely correct that my system is inadequate. Luckily, when it comes to pond maintenance, I don't get lazy. ....and I'm still too chicken to ever install that drain!!! Visions of a dry pond with fish flapping dances in my head

[Eugeneg]

The 2 air pumps run all winter..with 3 heaters floating...ready to be plugged in...in case anything fails!!! Sounds like overkill, but when your astrological sign is feces..you tend to expect the worst..lol.[/quote]

If you are in New England I would not run any air pumps during the winter rather I would cover the pond . As the wind chill factor has to be taken into consideration as well as the chilled air you are putting into the pond . There are a lot of ways of killing fish one of these is by letting the water drop to 36f where it starts to get slushy and fish have difficulty in moving their gills .
Another is not having a botom drain and not cleaning before winter .
A bottom drain moves the water and fish waste up by gravity at no cost then an external pump can be used which last 3 timkes as long and run at a far lower cost . Then is the cost of time in cleaning one has to take into consideration that time is not a renwable resorce .
So not to use a bottom drain is not very smart . When I have time I will give you a cost break down
Regards
Eugene

[gregbickal]

Quote: am one of those people who wears a belt and suspenders..I have 2 pumps running my system..in case 1 fails. Two air pumps running..in case one fails.

Ok, guys, since Brutuz is one of "those people", we need to use some Vulcan logic in the no pump in pond argument. I don't advocate having any pumps inside the pond, unless its a prop pump

Here are my top 10 reasons for your consideration....

• Clogging - Not talking about river-dance here. When you have the pump in the pond sucking up the gunk, its gonna clog. No matter how big of solids it will pull, something will clog it. Ever seen a frog get stuck in a pump. With our pumps on the end of the circut, they are alway pumping clean water, no chance of clogging. What happens when it clogs during the middle of the night, and your pump and filter are down until you discover it? Can a botom drain clog? Sure, but the item has to be thin enough to get in before it can clog up a 4" pipe. You might get a peice of something stuck on one side of the drain, but the rest of the drain remains open, still pulling water.
• Macerated Poop -Makes it harder to remove from system.
• Macerated Fish - Fish go in bottom drains occasionally, for whatever reason they pop the lid off or one is small enough. They wind up in the settling chamber and are returned safely to the pond. Your submersible pump is going to destroy that fish. Also see Clogging above.
• Fish Injury - Do you really want something else in your pond with a potential sharp edge that the koi are going to rub up against and get a possible wound on themselves?
• Electrical Consumption - How efficient is this pump you are wanting to use in comparison to say a Sequence or a WLim. Most sump pumps can't even compare.
• Electrical Hazard - GFI it all you want, are you sure its safe?
• Noise - Submersible pumps are noisy in the water. Don't ask me to prove it, but the submersible pumps I have used (mag drive) seem to bug the fish sounds wise.
• Flow & Design Options - In a gravity feed pump, the pump can do whatever we want with the water after it goes through the filter. Trickle tower, waterfall, TPR, etc. We can work with pressure on the back end. With your pump to filter situation, your filter location will will be limited in where the water can go afterward because it will have to be gravity fed back to the pond. No TPR
• Cleaning & Maintenance - If you want to clean pads, thats up to you, But I like just opening and closing a valve to clean my filter. Macerated poop, harder to remove.
• In your way plumbing- Ive dealt with this with retro fit over the liner bottom drains....You'll have a pump, cord, and pipe all visible in your pond and in your way anytime you want to catch a fish. Sure, you could pull the pump when you want to do this, but not having to sure makes life easier.

Feel free to add to the list anyone... Oh yeah #11...

Your Primary Concern Leak Hazzard
"The winters in New England are damn cold..and a pipe could crack very easily if not installed perfectly."

What senario is more likely to happen...
Bottom drain: For some unexpected reason, Bottom drain starts leaking one day just out of the blue? As if, but ok, say it happened, ground shifted, rodent, earthquake, pipe froze and broke, etc... Best case senario, its a drip drip drip, into clay soil and you don't even notice it. Worst case its a big hole in sandy soil and all the water soaks into the ground overnight....

Submersible Pump: Same situation, something happens to the pipe that your pump is pumping through...Froze and broke, or say Your Filter Matts clog, and your pump runs over the filter and pumps your pond dry in whatever GPH it runs.... How many have heard this one before "a racoon knocked my pump hose out of my filter and it pumped my pond dry"