Relative Quality of US bred Koi

[ppp]

I hear what you're saying, Erns. But nobody is asking local breeders to reinvent the wheel. Nobody is asking them to create and stabilize a new species or bloodline, a process which may take generations. Great oyagoi are available, in themselves already the culmination of 200 years of hard work.

The Japanese occasionally make mistakes too, selling fish too early and watching them grow to GC/oyagoi quality in the hands of customers. Sometimes they attempt to buy it back, but the customer not necessarily wants to part with it for any amount of money.

So the question comes back to.....if local breeders have a good eye for top notch koi from good established bloodlines, why can't they achieve pairings which can have offspring that are good enough to match the Japanese? Talking of merely continuing established bloodlines, not creating new ones.

[Erns]

I read an article where Hasegawa said that if he put 70 000 fry into a mudpond and only harvested 60 000 for the first cull then the best 10 000 have died as the are usually the weakest ones. Perhaps in that lies the secret and it's not all about parent koi and bloodlines but about rearing the high quality fry. In Japan they have great mudponds with mountain spring water etc. All the optimal conditions with generations of experience on which mudpond is best for which variety at what age. It's complex bussiness so perhaps it will take time to develop this?

I'm not an expert at all at this, so I'm just trying to have an conversation with you ppp and trying think about this. It's a question I've asked myself so many times. We now have a breeder in South Africa who is producing excellent Shiro Utsuri, but the go -sanke is still far behind.

[ppp]

Sure, I'm enjoying learning together with you guys. Please rest assured that the thread's intentions are innocent, just putting out in writing some of the things I've been wondering about, and with a view to learning from all you guys. I'm a relative newbie and there's just so much to learn!

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by ppp Sure, I'm enjoying learning together with you guys. Please rest assured that the thread's intentions are innocent, just putting out in writing some of the things I've been wondering about, and with a view to learning from all you guys. I'm a relative newbie and there's just so much to learn!

Then you should get the May June issue of Koi USA and read the article by Ray Jordan . Look at the photo of all the books . Most I have or borrowed and read now I am at the stage where I understand how little I really know .
I was just thinking that if I was to get all that inforamation post by post over the internet it could not be done even in a 100 years . Besides that one would need fish to study as well .
Regards
Eugene

[PapaBear]

I personally think Domestic breeders (the top tier fellas who sometimes hang around this forum) have done an outstanding job of playing catch up, but they are all striving for more, just as the Japanese breeders are. They are at an obvious disadvantage in terms of generational experience and brood stock, but they have made serious strides over the years.
I've seen any number of Domestic Koi that would put most of the Japanese imports available in the USA to shame, but lets face it. The USA is still mostly a Tateshita market where Japanese breeders dump their low grade Koi at 6 months old for low end customers. We are fortunate to have some top notch dealers who advertise and participate here that bring in higher quality stock, but they represent a minority of the retail marketplace.
It has been said before, but it is worth repeating, yesterdays Japanese GC couldn't win a ribbon at Today's American show. Ray's current thread of AJS Champions over at K.S. is a great lesson in how far things have come. There is no doubt in my mind that Brady, Brett, Matt, and Richard are all producing far better Koi than any of the past Champions he's posted thus far, but as he moves closer to the present that will change. The Japanese families have raised the bar for themselves and the rest of the world, and they are raising it still. The rest of the Koi loving world has to improve at twice the rate just to play catch-up.

[jnorth]

US bred koi winning AJKS? While you should never say never, thats odds of that ever happening are too huge to calculate. Last I checked you could not import koi into Japan so therefore you could "never" enter a US bred koi in the show as it could never make it into Japan to begin with. But I'm sure that wasn't your point .

So I'll have to agree with Dick on his points of US bred koi. I'll also say that I think its good that many of us do buy domestic koi from our domestic breeders that ARE trying to raise the domestic standard to something other then pond grade koi.

Richard said something very interesting as well. He states that domestic breeders may not have noticed the exceptional koi that they had bred based on inexperience. Is that good or bad for the consumer? We have all heard stories of "tategoi" that the breeder missed and some lucky customer spotted it and bought it and raised a GC or at the very least a very competitve koi. We all know that this rarely happens in Japan because the breeders eyes are very, very, very good. With that being the case a search for finding that one koi that is going to grow to be the GC you always wanted might be better spent going over the domestic stocks rather then the Japanese stocks. Sure the volume of quality koi from a domestic breeder is going to be much lower so you'll still be searching for a needle in a haystack but at least the haystack won't be quite so large and picked over.

[dick benbow]

I love the story about the guy searching thru the bin of tateshita only to discover a GC instead. I looked for 30 years till my eyes crossed and never found one! Lol.....I do think Rchard has a point, I have seen some domestic koi that went for $500. as a top koi from that spawn that if it was in japan at a popular breeder's you'd have paid close to 2 grand for it.

So much of our hobby is education. You won't get it till you go to japan and domestic breeders and see for yourself. Once you've gone you have to keep going cause every year the bar is raised. So it's a good excuse to get out, visit your local dealer ask questions, visit your local breeder. In education it's important to see not only the product but the parents from wence they came
as part of the educational process. Most breeders will hang on to siblings for 5 years to really know how they are going to progress......

[KoiCop]

While everyone thinks and talks about finding that overlooked 'diamond in the rough' tosai in a domestic breeder's tank, buying the tosai is only the beginning of a GC's journey.

If its new owner places it into an aquarium, forget about it.
If its new owner places it into a water garden, forget about it.
If its new owner places it into too small a koi pond, forget about it.
If its new owner places it into too shallow a koi pond, forget about it.
If its new owner places it into an overstocked koi pond, forget about it.
If its new owner places it into a koi pond with insufficient circulation, forget about it.
If its new owner places it into a koi pond with insufficient turnover, forget about it.
If its new owner places it into a koi pond with insufficient aeration, forget about it.
If its new owner places it into a koi pond with insufficient filtration, forget about it.
If its new owner fails to properly maintain the pond, forget about it.
If its new owner changes too much or too little water, forget about it.
If its new owner changes water too frequently or too infrequently, forget about it.
If its new owner feeds too much, too little or the wrong kinds of food, forget about it.
If its new owner doesn't stay on top of testing the water, forget about it.
If its new owner improperly adds various chemicals and medications to the pond, forget about it.
If its new owner doesn't know how to spot, identify & treat parasites and pathogenic bateria, forget about it.
If its new owner doesn't protect the koi from predators, forget about it.
If its new owner doesn't show the koi, forget about it.
If its new owner doesn't know how to condition the koi for showing, forget about it.

Come to think about it, breeding & buying that domestic GC tosai is the easy part!

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop While everyone thinks and talks about finding that overlooked 'diamond in the rough' tosai in a domestic breeder's tank, buying the tosai is only the beginning of a GC's journey. If its new owner places it into an aquarium, forget about it. If its new owner places it into a water garden, forget about it. If its new owner places it into too small a koi pond, forget about it. If its new owner places it into too shallow a koi pond, forget about it. If its new owner places it into an overstocked koi pond, forget about it. If its new owner places it into a koi pond with insufficient circulation, forget about it. If its new owner places it into a koi pond with insufficient turnover, forget about it. If its new owner places it into a koi pond with insufficient aeration, forget about it. If its new owner places it into a koi pond with insufficient filtration, forget about it. If its new owner fails to properly maintain the pond, forget about it. If its new owner changes too much or too little water, forget about it. If its new owner changes water too frequently or too infrequently, forget about it. If its new owner feeds too much, too little or the wrong kinds of food, forget about it. If its new owner doesn't stay on top of testing the water, forget about it. If its new owner improperly adds various chemicals to the pond, forget about it. If its new owner doesn't know how to spot, identify & treat parasites and pathogenic bateria, forget about it. If its new owner doesn't protect the koi from predators, forget about it. If its new owner doesn't show the koi, forget about it. If its new owner doesn't know how to condition the koi for showing, forget about it. Come to think about it, breeding & buying that domestic GC tosai is the easy part!

Thats a good point Don but one (er several) I didn't bother to mention as the same points apply to Japanese or domestic koi. You are definately right that finding a tosai that could grow to be a GC would be the easy part.

[dick benbow]

Don, I thought the expression "Foe-get a'bout it",,,,was an east coast expression popularized around the "philly" area......

Your right, tho, a breeders work is only as good as the hands he passes it on to. I know that most breeders want some assurance that their hard work will be advanced by the owner.