Relative Quality of US bred Koi

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth the same points apply to Japanese or domestic koi.

Jim . . .

You're right, of course -- but look at the vast differences in how the two markets are shopped (and who shops them) to place my point into proper perspective.

The best Japanese koi will (by and large) will be steered by breeders, dealers and brokers into the hands of hobbyists (with mud pond access) that have a reasonable chance to not only maintain them, but grow them on to reach their genetic potential.

Do our domestic breeders steer their top koi to our top dealers and top hobbyists? No.

Do Nishikigoi of Niigata, EnKoi, Genki, Champion, Kerin, &/etc. aggressively shop and stock the domestics so that our top hobbyists can select top grade domestic tosai? No.

Because the same collaborative networks and relationships do not exist in our domestic market, the odds of a domestic GC tosai being purchased and grown on by a GC quality hobbyist are infintesimal.

So it don't much matter if our domestic breeders produce the odd GC calibre tosai, odds are it ain't never gonna make it to The Show.

[KoiCop]

[quote=dick benbow;82830]Don, I thought the expression "Foe-get a'bout it",,,,was an east coast expression popularized around the "philly" area......
[quote]

Dick . . .

That would be 'fuggidaboudit.'

And, yes, I did live in Joisey for several years.

[dick benbow]

thanks for the laugh Don.....glad to see your getting cured in cali

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Do our domestic breeders steer their top koi to our top dealers and top hobbyists? No.

Not wanting to be argumentative I will have to slightly disagree on this one to a point. While I have no idea what the rest of the domestic guys are doing I will say that Quality Koi is clearly making an attempt to steer their best koi into the hands of the best koi keepers that buy from them. Obviously many of the high enders do not buy domestic but there are some that have been breaking the ranks either because they think they might be the one to buy that domestic GC or because they just like Mat and company and want to support them or who knows(I have some other theories but I ain't sharing them in public)? Basically what I'm saying is that I was quite surprised by some of the faces I saw at their last pond pull and even more surprised that most of them had domestic koi bred by Mat and crew being pulled from American mud ponds that day.

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth Not wanting to be argumentative . . .

Hey, Jim . . .

You're not only not argumentative, you're correct -- and I've been wondering when someone would bring up Matt & company at NKF/QK.

Over and above what you said, they're also offering mud pond grow out and satisfaction guaranteed. Not only are these steps in the right direction, I actually think it gives them an advantage for copping JR's dollar for the first domestic to win GC at a decent sized show.

Even so, they're still baby steps and a proverbial drop in the bucket of total domestic production.

[Rich L]

The long liniages aimed at show quality and little commitment to immunity have given Quality american farms an edge here.

Ass ide from that, all the major breeders here are very reluctant to sell a good show koi to someone who won't show it or be able to properly care for it because their best marketing is thru awards at shows.

There are lots of breeders comming along who are producing nice koi but the show quality seems to come from the well established breeders.

If you can afford 10,000 for a really competative show koi good for you. Anything elst were just comparing apples and apples. Other than costs.

[kevan]

the usa breeders could easily equal the japanese, but they would have to be rich and truley dedictated. the facilities and the parent stock can be bought, the knowledge/eye can be learned and the dedication is possible but who will put all of these into practice?

currently as the domestic breeders have to sell their koi for a fraction of the price of japanese koi the chances are that no one in the USA will make enough bucks to compete comercially on a quality level until the domestic koi standared is raised by an american super koi pioneer breeder and the respect and demand/price then grows but it will lag behind the general price of the koi produced by a japanese breeder as it is generally considered a safer bet regarding the future potential quality.

so anyone attempting to break the mould and compete with the japanese will have to be rich or be very very dedicated spending large amounts while making no money for many years to eventually have broodstock worthy of using at the highest level.

but it is possible and most likely will happen,

the non rich usa breeders will need to network to obtain loan koi from other top koi keepers/dealers to try as parents if they are not rich, this can be a shortcut to success at little cost. if they can find willing hobbists/dealers at the highest level then if they are very lucky with much dedication and skill they may achieve truly great things.

forget all this nonsense about 200 years etc it means nothing, look at some previous koi dealers hobbiists who are now top breeders in japan and some have done it in a short time, using methods not previously widely considered - not because they inherited this 200 year myth but because they had the attributes mentioned previously and were willing to learn and try new things, and the knowledge is not some great secret it is there if you want to seek it and expand on it and move it forward. yes experience does count and some of that can be passed down to a son or worker but you must remeber many koi farms who were once great die out because while the knowledge may have been passed down as well as the parent koi the successors may not have had the heart or the eye or the pioneering brainpower that modern koi breeders have to move things forward, inspite of the family and local koi traditions stretching back perhaps 200 years.

i will say again you do not need 200 years of koi background to produce the best koi, if you are gifted and fortunate with the funds you could produce an all japan champion within 20 years or less.

now lets say the mask all japan champion comes to England and as it is fading in its glory the owner decides to loan it to a dedicated breeder friend in the UK or USA imagine the potential! there would be many japanese breeders who would beg for the same opportunity to start a great bloodline from this koi. now while this may not happen or the results may not be the best i think it gives you an idea of how things could change if our vision and finances changed.

though what appears to be exposed in many domestic breeders at this time is the lack of the eye and the ability to know how to select parent koi, let alone fry.
i dont think this is because we dont have the ability as some clearly do but because when fewer people are breeding you will notice the ones who dont achieve much a lot sooner and it makes the rest look bad as a whole. in japan they would just be lost in the many bad breeders and masked by the few great breeders but in the usa and the UK they are rather exposed being so few breeders in number but slowly the number of quality breeders in the USA is growing and will eventualy mask the poorer ones. yes sheer numbers of breeders does play a part and in that sense the odds may not be in our favour making it a little harder on the general level, but it it only takes one dainichi or sakai or maeda or Richard! to achieve greater things.

richard Rombold gets my vote here as the most gifted and most likely to succeed, i dont know how Rich you are Richard but if you are working on a small budget then you have achieved great things so far, i hope you can network for potential parent koi on loan to further your quest at minimal costs.

i dont know if you have posted them before but id love to see your parent koi.

[kevan]

sorry double post!

[mitten]

Thank you for all the typing Kevan, but let me follow your post with a continuation.

The Japanese have built a world market for their koi and the world comes to them. American breeders are competing on home turf, but for only the American segment of the market. Vast superiority would be needed to get Malaysians to ignore their own domestic koi, ignore the koi of Japan and buy from the US. Likely conclusion? American breeders will have a cieling at the border. Their sales will be American only, where they have to take share from the Japanese, and where the small number of elitist members of the underdeveloped hobby, (though the US is vast) already prefer, rightly so for their interests, Japanese fish.

New hobbyists in a wider hobby are the only long term hope of high quality American breeders, yet that is where they CANNOT compete. American breeders with the resources to flood the market with cheap fish dominate every source likely to be shopped by a beginner in the hobby and make it profitable for the retailer to stock the low end product and silly for them to stock the others. Remember that for most pond owners it is just a big goldfish.

This leaves only the middle teir of collectors, show goers and pondkeepers as customers for the likes of Mat and Brady. This is the target market and the bread and butter of the import dealers also, so let the butting of heads begin. Luckily it appears that almost all players in this part of the business are gentlemen. Thank goodness.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by kevan currently as the domestic breeders have to sell their koi for a fraction of the price of japanese koi the chances are that no one in the USA will make enough bucks to compete comercially on a quality level until the domestic koi standared is raised by an american super koi pioneer breeder and the respect and demand/price then grows but it will lag behind the general price of the koi produced by a japanese breeder as it is generally considered a safer bet regarding the future potential quality.

This statement is absolutely wrong, I have bought Tosai from domestic breeders and it costs more to buy domestic than it does to buy Japanese including shipping. It gets even worse, the same size Japanese Tosai not only cost less to get but the quality is better. There is no way to get domestic Tosai for less than Japanese Tosai unless you are buying your Japanese Tosai from a domestic broker.
I don't know how prices compare on larger Koi because I have never purchased any larger domestic Koi.