Relative Quality of US bred Koi

[ppp]

Many of you live in the US and I see that many of you buy locally bred koi. I hope I won't be ruffling too many feathers if I ask the question of how good US bred kois are, relative to Japanese bred kois. I realise that most US breeders are also members of this forum and will be reading the replies to this post too, so I'm not sure if posters will be totally honest here.

I think from any breeding season, there will be some very good koi coming out. Just how good are they? Is the quality high enough, say, for a US-bred gosanke to win GC at the AJKS one day? Never say never, I guess. Two years ago, nobody could have imagined that the AJKS GC would be owned by non-Japanese.

Locally bred kois will always be cheaper than imported ones from Japan, like for like. Shipment charges is one, but not the only reason, I think. Do Americans buy US-bred koi solely because they are more affordable? Or is it because the quality is better than Japanese koi?

You may also want to be specific about certain types of koi which American breeders are better at breeding, eg Ogons, Asagis?

There are koi breeders in Malaysia too, but their standards are far far below those from Japan.

[aquitori]

The "relative" quality of US Bred koi is good...But it also depends on the breeder too. Alot of US breeder's have invested alot of money in buying Oyagoi to improve stocks. So relatively speaking the best has yet to come and I am sure you'll be seeing American breeders change their farm name to something Japanese...

[dick benbow]

It's not logical to say that any grouping of dedicated professionals can compete with the knowledge and application of 200 years of koi breeding know how from japan.

About half of my koi stock is from mat at quality koi of whom I like as an individual and respect as a capable breeder of koi. If I lived in the UK, I would be buying koi from maurice as he has done a meteoric job of rising extremely fast. I also have the highest regard for Scott Purdin, Brett Rawley and Bradey ( an accomplished photographer as well ) for what they have accomplished as domestic koi breeders.

But the truth of the matter is your not gonna compete with the four generation accomplishment of the likes of the Sakai family of Hiroshima, no matter how good you are.

think about this for a second. What impact is the current KHV having on the process of producing ever increasing levels of high grade koi. To buy or swap breeders is to enter into a game of russian roulette. If domestic breeders don't continually bring in better and better breeders then they fall behind
the already advanced leaders. Do the advanced leaders go into a period of dormancy and work strictly with what bloodlines they have?

I have always been a voice of support for domestically produced koi and will always be . But your not gonna see anything domestic compete on the same level as the top breeders in japan anytime soon. I do think a domestic fish can be bred and win a good sized american show against some goodjapanese competition. But not in the numbers yearly like the top name breeders that are producing numbers of them in japan.

Still I hope each country supports their local breeders. It's an encouragement
and also a positive way to keep prices competitive. if something would ever happen with import restrictions then where would we be without a domestic market to turn to?

[bekko]

It's a numbers game. The cream of the crop will continue to come from Japan because they are culling through so many more offspring looking for those one-in-a-million individuals. Even without the advantage of multi-generational know-how, and all else being equal, and all nationalistic biases aside, the AJKS GC will come from Japan as long as the bulk of koi production comes from Japan.

-s tev

[Richard Rombold]

Dick,

I think the yardstick isn't if a domestic farm can breed a fish that is as good as the best from Japan. I'm sure it has already happened, but the farm or hobbyist didn't have the skill to recognize the potential and develop it. The real test will be consistently producing a volume of high quality koi. This is a much higher standard. I don't see any farms outside of Japan close to this goal, and even darn few inside Japan. Don't count out the domestics, but there is a mountain of obstacles to overcome. Having quality parent stock is only a start. We need all the support we can get, and with the domestic fish there can be great value. However, let's be honest. I have not seen a US bred fish that is worth $4k let alone $40k or $60k. It's just no where close to happening yet.

Richard Rombold

[Brutuscz]

I deal with Blackwater creek, and many of my fish come from there. I have heard that Suda has some partnership/ownership in BWK koi farm. This type of situation helps keep the breeding stock quality good. I think that as the American koi market increases, japanese breeders will realize there is real money to be made in the US. Some others may set up shop here as well...investing in established farms, like Suda, or starting from scratch.
As far as whats already here...Quality is good. I think the Japanese top 1% is light years ahead of the USA top 1%. There is no showa I have seen in this country to compare to the Dainichi or Maruyama GC showa's. I do believe that in the smaller sizes, the gap closes a great deal.

[ppp]

I cannot speak for American breeders of course, but apparently the Asian (ex Japan) breeders don't cull enough of their fry to maintain a generally high standard. Think of it, a pairing produces from 250,000 to 500,000 fry per spawning. Assume 500,000. The Japanese would probably cull at least 480,000 (just my guess). The typical Asian (ex Japan) breeder would do his maths and figure that if he sold that 480,000 fry for just 20 cents each, he would make whole ton more $. That makes him reluctant to cull as much. Of course in reality a very high proportion will be unsaleable anyway because of deformities, but you get my drift.

Added to this is the fact that the best oyagoi will never be sold by the Japanese until they are over the hill. Musashi was apparently available sometime last year (sky high price of course) and a group of us here actually contemplated purchasing it for breeding, but well....it didn't materialize. Omosako felt then that they already had better oyagoi like Panda.

Yes, I agree that the difference at small koi sizes narrows considerably. It's a lot easier to win small koi prizes than big koi prizes. EVERYONE has small koi. But not everyone has the means to buy a really good Japanese bred tategoi and provide a good enough environment (coupled with skill) for it to be nurtured into a big GC class koi. Class tells in the end...

The Japanese are a very proud people. Quality, standard and family reputation are of paramount importance, particularly amongst the multi-generation koi breeders. Money is important to survive and keep going of course, but it is not the most important thing to Japanese breeders and we must really respect them for that. For the rest of the world, there are local koi breeders everywhere and amongst them, I am sure there are some who are more discerning than others on quality control and standards of koi they put up for sale. But by and large, I think they trail the Japanese by a huge margin. Dick, your points are taken too, thanks.

[moikoi]

i notice that many U.S breed 1-2 yr olds has really gone up in price. U.S. breed tosai in the 300-$550 range.

[Steve Nguyen]

it's all demands/supplies. if not many koi keepers will to pay high prices for domestic koi, the price will drop. it's the same go for Japanese stock but as you can see there is always a demand for imported fish from Japan.

Steve

Quote: Originally Posted by moikoi i notice that many U.S breed 1-2 yr olds has really gone up in price. U.S. breed tosai in the 300-$550 range.

[Erns]

I saw a few koi produced by Purdin koi farms in a recent British magazine and I must admit I was amazed at the quality. It was really something. Even the 3 and 4 year olds looked pretty good.

I also believe in supporting the local guys because of that ever increasing fear of what if imports was to seize. The problem with the local guys are that they have not had 200 years to develop a bloodline of parent koi, so that will take time and whether they have to skill to do so we will see.

Just look at the recent article in Koi USA on Hasegawa Kohaku, another example of how it took a life time to develop a good line in just one variety. Local guys need to survive, and there will always be a good market for commercial koi, the same with the Japanese. Once the local guys have established a good flow of money they can start to focus on producing quality in one or two varieties but that will also mean sacrificing a bit of income for an high risk investment over time.