ready to pull my hair out!!!

[lilkoi]

Hi all, I'm new to here. My name is Jo, and like you all im a die hard koi hobbiest....recently i had a small break out of sap in my pond, figured I would bring them all in and treat them all seeing how they might all have it anyways ...1 33 inch male Israeli koi (my fav) its three year old son, almost as big
6 more japenese assorted imported koi that were between 19 inches and 28 inches 30 over ten inches 30 under 10 and a few others like shumbunkins and high fins Chinese sharks ...two weeks ago i noticed 10 with what i didnt know was sap did a salt treatment and Malachite green, then 30 more got it...so i brought them all in a friend came over and helped me treat them with binox and amikacin and pp to the infected spot ...then i a few died and a few more got it.....then i did one treatment of pp mind you water has been heated to 83 constant a 10%in and out after treatments lost a few more my fav the 33 inch male jumped out and hurt himself so bad he died a few others couldn't take the pp....most are now better after three pps need another 2 treatments of pp and thinking of trying superverm...one still seems to not get any better thinking of just removing him...any suggestions?????? not sure if it will even go away but praying cause im not seeing any more sign then on one that it might almost be fixed but who knows maybe i am....-jo

[saratogatan]

jo,
sorry to hear that you are having problem with your beloved koi. ALthough I am no expert of koi illness, I will go it a shot. BTW, you may want to visit
koivet.com for help. (moderator, I hope it is OK to mention koivet.com).

First of all, I like to ask you about the water quality. Have you done any testing on the water quality ? can you post some of those data ? Tha will help alot.

what is the toal volumn of your pond ? How many koi/fishes do you have in them, how often do you do water change.

Sap is everywhere, you cannot eliminate them completely from your pond. It only become a problem when the environment becomes favourable for them. In most cases, that means poor water quality, over crowded pond, and/or injury on koi.

You should fix any water quality and/or over-crowdiness in your pond first.

As for treating the koi, I think it is better that you only apply medication to the infected spots, bombing the whole pond is not a very good solution. You can use either iodine, hydrogen peroxide or PP pater to swap the infected spot, apply some triple-anti biotic oinment over the spot after swapping.

I think you are over-treating your koi.

stan

[lilkoi]

First of all, I like to ask you about the water quality.it is less then .50 amonia no nitrates. Have you done any testing on the water quality ?yes every two days

what is the toal volumn of your pond 5,500 gallons How many koi/fishes do you have in them,55 how often do you do water change?every week i flush out settleing tanks and get rid of 30 %...i then add 30% well water to fill it back up my well water is free of chlorine and other bad stuff.

[saratogatan]

I think you are way over stock, and ammonia reading is not so good. That provided the perfect env for sap. I assume that you have a positive identification of sap.

How may PP have you done so far ? at what PPM ? What exactly did you try to eliminate ? For superverm, you are talking about killing fluke, do you have a positive identification ? At any rate, too much medication can weaken your koi, would you mind holding on to your posion for a litle while ?

Can you get some photos on the pne koi that is not soing so well ? If you can get us a few shots on its gills, that will be very helpful.

BTW, forgot to ask if you added new fish lately ?

stan

[CarolinaGirl]

I agree with Stan...you are bombarding them with too many chemicals at this point with no firm diagnosis. SAP is an opportunistic fungus. It is present in nearly every pond, but rarely causes a problem unless things go wrong somewhere else along the line. Then sap moves in and causes a LOT of problems. SAP attacks fish that are weak or injured. It rarely causes a problem in a healthy fish in warm water.

Comments:
1. You are WAY overstocked. In 5500 gallons you should really have no more than 20 fish, preferably no more than 12 or so.

2. Superverm will kill goldfish VERY dead. I don't know about the highfined shark....suspect it won't do him any good either.

3. Superverm is dangerous and can burn fish. It is only affective against flukes. Do not even consider using it without the diagnosis of flukes, and then consider using something safer.

4. You need to get someone to properly diagnosis your fish before proceeding with ANY treatment! Adding more chemicals will cause more problems at this point then you already have.

5. You have dumped so much crap in the pond that your filters are probably dead. Expect ammonia levels to go up and be prepared for it. Have some ammonia binder on hand. You will also need to have salt on hand in case the nitrites start to go up.

6. spot treatment of SAP is easier to spot treat on affected fish. Sedate the fish, clean affected area with peroxide and spot treat the area with malachite green.

7. Clean the pond completly. Get all mulm, debris, leaves, plant material, etc. out of the pond. The fish will need a clean environment to heal.

I wish you all the luck in the world fixing whatever went wrong. SAP is really nasty and can kill fish quickly. You need to get to the bottom of the original cause though and fix it.

[KoiCop]

Thanks for the sound advice, Cindy (Carolina Girl).

It's so very helpful to have a certified Koi Health Advisor step in on these sick fish/pond threads!

Jo . . .

Wishing you the best as you try to get this situation under control.

Your profile doesn't list your location, but you should contact your local AKCA club (@ AKCA Clubs). They might have a KHA onboard and (relatively) close by that could offer you some personal assistance?

[CarolinaGirl]

Glad to lend a hand Don. Unfortunatly my knowledge about SAP comes from personal experience. I had a very nasty outbreak of it after burning fish with Superverm. The fins on many fish had big globs of SAP growing on the edges. that was an easy fix....I sedated them and trimmed the fins! The cut edges were treated to prevent re-infection and all the fins grew back normally. Treating SAP on the body is much harder and needs to be watched closely for reoccurance. I treated that before too. Sometimes sucessfully.....sometimes not.

[CarolinaGirl]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Your profile doesn't list your location, but you should contact your local AKCA club (@ AKCA Clubs). They might have a KHA onboard and (relatively) close by that could offer you some personal assistance?

great idea Don. I looked at the KHA list and there is one listed that may be close enough to help. Contact Karen Pattist at pattist@snet.net

[KoiCop]

Best SAP thread I've seen was by REC on KoiVet:

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Like several folks have said, however, SAP is usually a secondary infection which takes root after parasites and pathogenic bacteria have breached the natural defenses (slime coat & scales) of weakened koi.

[Steve Nguyen]

any pix of what sap infection looks like? certainly hope I don't ever run into the problem but it would help to have something for references.

Steve

Quote: Originally Posted by CarolinaGirl Glad to lend a hand Don. Unfortunatly my knowledge about SAP comes from personal experience. I had a very nasty outbreak of it after burning fish with Superverm. The fins on many fish had big globs of SAP growing on the edges. that was an easy fix....I sedated them and trimmed the fins! The cut edges were treated to prevent re-infection and all the fins grew back normally. Treating SAP on the body is much harder and needs to be watched closely for reoccurance. I treated that before too. Sometimes sucessfully.....sometimes not.