Problems dosing with Potassium permanganate-hard water

[michaeljc70]

Quote: Originally Posted by saratogatan Michael, There are a few bugs that are the 'normal suspect' when koi get sick and die. The med (or poison) can be roughly divided into 2 groups 1. fluke poison : prazi, fenbendazole, fluke tab, and LifeBearer as mike suggested. 2. non-fluke : costia, trichodino,chilodonellena .. poison : ProformC and QuickCure, both are MG+Formalin. QUickCUre is alot cheaper. You can see that there is no overlapping of the poison between the 2 groups. Since we have no photos, and you only mentioned isolation as the syndrme, it is rather hard to guess which way to go. Since there is no filter in your system, water quality may be your first problem. May I suggest that you test the water quality of your pond ? you may also try a big % water change, say 40%, and see how the sick koi react ? stan

I think many are underestimating the effectiveness of PP. According to research PP is effective:

acting against a range of protozoan parasites including Trichodina, Costia and Chilodonella, as well as monogenean flukes Gyrodactylus (skin flukes) and Dactylogyrus (gill flukes). In addition to being an effective anti-parasite treatment, potassium permanganate can also assist with bacterial gill disease and bacterial disease such as skin ulcers

The second point is that it also does a great job of "Clarifying" pond water....meaning oxidizing dissolved organic matter, reducing the biological oxygen demand and improving water quality and clarity. Other treatments don't have this affect on the water which in and of it self can help Koi heal faster.

The third point is that PP is much less expensive than most other treatments. I think for $30 I got enough PP to treat my pond about 1000 times.

The 4th point is some other treatments have an adverse affect on plants and frogs (of which I have both).

I have had a pond and Koi for many years and was trying to keep things brief in order to really stick to the premise of my question....PP dosage. I know there are other treatments out there.

[koiczar]

Michaeljc70

To keep it short and sweet - re-read KoiCop's post again and follow what he's telling you. Then, come back and tell us if it worked or not. There's no sense in speculating the "WHY'S" and "WHY NOTS".

Mike

[HenryC]

Quote: Originally Posted by michaeljc70 ....meaning oxidizing dissolved organic matter

The answer to why your PP dosage is not staying pink for 8 to 10 hours is in your own post. The problem is not hard water, it is your watergarden is loaded with organics (and I don't mean the plants). If I were to put a 7.5ppm PP charge in my Koi pond, it would stay pink for days. I would also have a lot of dead Koi. You should never do a 7.5ppm treatment especially in a small pond where you do not know the exact volume ("around 500 gallons"). A pond that size has very little room for error. The only thing that has saved your Koi from this dosage is the high level of organics in your water. If you wanted to continue treating with PP, you should do lower doses. You could start with a 4ppm charge and if it is spent within an hour, add another 2ppm. If the bottom of your watergarden is covered with gravel you will probably never get a PP charge to do anything other than oxidize the mulm trapped in the rocks. You would have to temporarily house your Koi elsewhere and remove all the rocks. Be forewarned, it will stink when you remove it due to all the rotting material trapped in it.

BTW - the "research" you quoted is out dated and for the most part just plain wrong. Many flukes these days will just laugh at attempts to eradicate them with PP. It may knock them back a little but will not eradicate them especially in a pond that has plenty of other organics to oxidize first. Using PP to "clarify" a pond is just a cheap short cut to a poorly filtered and/or maintained pond.

[KoiCop]

michael . . .

Unfortunately for you, the guys and gals on this board are by and large those whose ponds look like swimming pools -- with koi the size of small dolphins swimming in them.

Since we don't share your ponding experience and don't experience your ponding problems, you might wish to visit boards that have and do. They, no doubt, can relate to and help you with your specific interests and problems.

And while you're always welcome here, you might try some of the following URL's. Best wishes,

North American Water Garden Society:
NAWGS*Koi & Pond, Watergarden or Water Garden Info Page

KoiVet:
KoiVet Message Boards - powered by vBulletin

American Ponders:
http://www.americanponders.com/

Koi Pond Talk:
http://www.koipondtalk.com/

Koi Reflections:
http://backyardpuddle.com/

Garden Web:
GardenWeb - The Internet's Garden Community

Aquascape Designs:
http://www.aquascapeinc.com/

Yahoo Group, Ponds-Koi:
http://groups.yahoo.com/

[KoiCop]

michael . . .

PP is an indiscriminate oxidizer and will just as soon burn gill tissue as fish poop. Many ponds are wiped out each year by folks playing with fire.

But if you still insist on using a screwdriver to pound nails in the dark, you should read this re: PP'ing your pond. It's an article on flukes and their control by Duncan Griffiths on his website:

koi & H2O stuff

[svenni]

Hi Michael,

i dont mean to bother too much but I feel a bit weird reading this thread. If you want to be a serious koi keeper you should at least own a microscope and determine what kind of parasites you are dealing with! Secondly, if your water stays pink for an Hour only it is a quite clear indication that you have too much organic matter in your pond. If you say, that discussing your filter or your setup is not an issue for you why are you asking for help then? Seems you got a serious problem in your pond but you insist that everything is OK. If this was the case you did not need to consult anyone here, right?

I do not agree with people installing a pond for a couple of thousand dollars, puttinbg fish (koi) for a similar amount but not even spend 80 Dollars for a microscope to determine the most common parasites.

Poor Koi!

[michaeljc70]

Quote: Originally Posted by svenni Hi Michael, i dont mean to bother too much but I feel a bit weird reading this thread. If you want to be a serious koi keeper you should at least own a microscope and determine what kind of parasites you are dealing with! Secondly, if your water stays pink for an Hour only it is a quite clear indication that you have too much organic matter in your pond. If you say, that discussing your filter or your setup is not an issue for you why are you asking for help then? Seems you got a serious problem in your pond but you insist that everything is OK. If this was the case you did not need to consult anyone here, right? I do not agree with people installing a pond for a couple of thousand dollars, puttinbg fish (koi) for a similar amount but not even spend 80 Dollars for a microscope to determine the most common parasites. Poor Koi!

Well, I never claimed to be a "serious" Koi keeper. If I recall, I did post this in the hobbyist section of the forums. That doesn't mean I don't know basic care of Koi and want them to die. Just as people raise showdogs and run around the country showing them off and primping them, people also own dogs as pets to enjoy. People that raise showdogs probably don't get that.

As for the microscope, I think most people with a few inexpensive in a small pond don't own one. Also, I have to drain my pond to catch the Koi or remove all the plants. Draining the pond and netting a sick Koi puts additional stress on an already sick fish.

As for the organic matter, I disagree as repeatedly treating would eventually dissolve it. Even after repeated treatments, the water didn't stay pink any longer which doesn't make sense as there would be less organic matter with each treatment. I also don't agree that something is wrong with my pond. I have 1 sick Koi and 5 normal Koi. If something was massively wrong with the water, they would all be reacting similarly.

[mstrseed]

Quote: Originally Posted by michaeljc70 Draining the pond and netting a sick Koi puts additional stress on an already sick fish. So why not bowl the fish not net it? Nets are to be used as guides......... I also don't agree that something is wrong with my pond. I have 1 sick Koi and 5 normal Koi. If something was massively wrong with the water, they would all be reacting similarly. Have you ever though it was the weakest one, and the rest will surly follow?

Here is a thought, take all your plants out of the pond place them in a kiddie pool and PP the crap out of the plants. Kill all your bugs....save the fish. Then put them back in..........
Novel idea huh

[saratogatan]

let's lower our voice a litle. Koi is for enjoyment and there is no need for us to be rude or hostile to other during a discussion.

stan

[bekko]

Add 2 ppm potassium permanganate every morning and exchange as much water as you can every afternoon (after neutralizing chlorine, etc). Siphon or vacuum the bottom as much as you can. It may take a couple of weeks, but you will eventually burn up enough organics to knock back the parasites.

You said that the jar test indicated a PP demand of 7.5 ppm but that dose did not yield persistent pink in the pond. The difference is the organic matter on the bottom. Hard water has an insignificant effect.

From your description of the fish behavior, my guess is flukes. I agree with others who say you should get a diagnosis before treating. However, treating with Prazi for flukes will not harm anything except your pocketbook.

Do not give more than 10 grams of feed per day (a handful is about 30 grams) until the filtration is upgraded. That is the assimilation capacity of your pond. You may have to adjust the number of fish to match the assimilation capacity and feeding rate.

-steve