Problems dosing with Potassium permanganate-hard water

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by michaeljc70 Well, I never claimed to be a "serious" Koi keeper. If I recall, I did post this in the hobbyist section of the forums. That doesn't mean I don't know basic care of Koi and want them to die. Just as people raise showdogs and run around the country showing them off and primping them, people also own dogs as pets to enjoy. People that raise showdogs probably don't get that. As for the microscope, I think most people with a few inexpensive in a small pond don't own one. Also, I have to drain my pond to catch the Koi or remove all the plants. Draining the pond and netting a sick Koi puts additional stress on an already sick fish. As for the organic matter, I disagree as repeatedly treating would eventually dissolve it. Even after repeated treatments, the water didn't stay pink any longer which doesn't make sense as there would be less organic matter with each treatment. I also don't agree that something is wrong with my pond. I have 1 sick Koi and 5 normal Koi. If something was massively wrong with the water, they would all be reacting similarly.

You've already been given some very good advice, but I'll go ahead and chime in anyway.
I think you underestimate not only the knowledge base of the people who have responded to you, but also their enjoyment of their fish as pets, not just trophies. There are folks around here who go swimming with their fish, so your "People that raise showdogs probably don't get that" notion is way off track.
Your ph levels are fine. Damn near ideal, so that has nothing to do with the PP dosage problems. You mention that your water is hard, but hard is a relative term. What are you Kh and Gh readings? Assuming you have a rocky, gravel bottom pond it is likely somewhat on the hard side by virtue of mineralization of the gravel into the water. The good news is that high Gh has nothing to do with pp dosage. PP is an organic oxidizer, and rocks are inorganic as are any minerals in your water supply.
PP does not harm plants even in massive doses and does not oxidize dirt, so nuking your plants separately will not harm them.
So why IS your pp dosage only lasting 1/2 hr after so many doses??? Because it is very slowly eating away at the mulm in the bottom layer by layer. Parasites are likely living and breeding down there in the muck, and with each dosage of pp you are killing off 1 very thin layer of mulm at a time, which is being quickly replaced by fresh fish poop on the somewhat cleaner top layer. Getting all the crap out of the bottom of the pond is going to take a very long time as it appears you haven't cleaned the bottom in quite a while.
You are correct in stating that you only have one sick fish and 5 healthy ones. You forgot that you also have one dead one too. The first one was the canary in the coal mine. 1 down, 6 to go. The sick one is the next weakest sister, soon to be 2 down, 5 to go. And so it will go until you take it from those who already know what you don't want to hear and fix the problem you refuse to admit you've had all along.

[JasPR]

And so it goes--------

[michaeljc70]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko Add 2 ppm potassium permanganate every morning and exchange as much water as you can every afternoon (after neutralizing chlorine, etc). Siphon or vacuum the bottom as much as you can. It may take a couple of weeks, but you will eventually burn up enough organics to knock back the parasites. You said that the jar test indicated a PP demand of 7.5 ppm but that dose did not yield persistent pink in the pond. The difference is the organic matter on the bottom. Hard water has an insignificant effect. From your description of the fish behavior, my guess is flukes. I agree with others who say you should get a diagnosis before treating. However, treating with Prazi for flukes will not harm anything except your pocketbook. Do not give more than 10 grams of feed per day (a handful is about 30 grams) until the filtration is upgraded. That is the assimilation capacity of your pond. You may have to adjust the number of fish to match the assimilation capacity and feeding rate. -steve

I was doing 2ppm a day for 5 days. I also did about a 20%water change after most. I guess one of the big problems is that you can't do big water changes as the dechlor deactivates the treatment. As the fish that was sick seems to be a little better, at least time seems to be on my side. I think I drain the pond, treat the plants separately, re-add the fish and water and dechlor and wait for the dechlor to deactivate.

I appreciate all the advice on here, but it does seem to be conflicting. Some seem to think PP will not help at all.

I guess I am wondering 2 things:

1) at what point do you start doing a treatment? If a fish acts a little odd, segregates from the others, is at the surface gasping for air (too late I think), etc?
2) What sequence of treatments would you do if you don't know what the problem is? From what I've read and has been mentioned on here, there are 2 major categories and those treatments can't be intermixed. I am assuming that visual inspection doesn't reveal anything on the fish.

[s2chang]

So many big guns coming in for help with sound scientific advise!

It hurts to see them coming into one ear and going right out the other.

Larry, you're on the right tract. I hope something is ringing between the ears by now. stevec

[michaeljc70]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear You've already been given some very good advice, but I'll go ahead and chime in anyway. I think you underestimate not only the knowledge base of the people who have responded to you, but also their enjoyment of their fish as pets, not just trophies. There are folks around here who go swimming with their fish, so your "People that raise showdogs probably don't get that" notion is way off track. Your ph levels are fine. Damn near ideal, so that has nothing to do with the PP dosage problems. You mention that your water is hard, but hard is a relative term. What are you Kh and Gh readings? Assuming you have a rocky, gravel bottom pond it is likely somewhat on the hard side by virtue of mineralization of the gravel into the water. The good news is that high Gh has nothing to do with pp dosage. PP is an organic oxidizer, and rocks are inorganic as are any minerals in your water supply. PP does not harm plants even in massive doses and does not oxidize dirt, so nuking your plants separately will not harm them. So why IS your pp dosage only lasting 1/2 hr after so many doses??? Because it is very slowly eating away at the mulm in the bottom layer by layer. Parasites are likely living and breeding down there in the muck, and with each dosage of pp you are killing off 1 very thin layer of mulm at a time, which is being quickly replaced by fresh fish poop on the somewhat cleaner top layer. Getting all the crap out of the bottom of the pond is going to take a very long time as it appears you haven't cleaned the bottom in quite a while. You are correct in stating that you only have one sick fish and 5 healthy ones. You forgot that you also have one dead one too. The first one was the canary in the coal mine. 1 down, 6 to go. The sick one is the next weakest sister, soon to be 2 down, 5 to go. And so it will go until you take it from those who already know what you don't want to hear and fix the problem you refuse to admit you've had all along.

I emptied the pond, sucked every last bit of muck out (bottom is just liner), gave the plants a high dose of PP after rinsing them (they are in gravel), and then refilled the pond. The PP stayed pink until I deactivated it, so that if it becomes necessary to PP the Koi, I can. At this point, they all look pretty good and seem to be acting normal. I am just going to continue watching them closely.

[KoiCop]

michael . . .

Well done.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by michaeljc70 I emptied the pond, sucked every last bit of muck out (bottom is just liner), gave the plants a high dose of PP after rinsing them (they are in gravel), and then refilled the pond. The PP stayed pink until I deactivated it, so that if it becomes necessary to PP the Koi, I can. At this point, they all look pretty good and seem to be acting normal. I am just going to continue watching them closely.

Sounds like things are headed in the right direction.
It would be a good idea to install a retrofit bottom drain. That way you will greatly reduce the amount of mulm that can accumulate in the bottom of the pond. Your mechanical filtration will be much more effective and pond maintenance/health issues will both be greatly reduced.