Problems dosing with Potassium permanganate-hard water

[michaeljc70]

I have been trying to dose my pond with PP. The problem is I have hard water and it is taking a lot more pp than I see recommended and I am worried about over dosing. I dosed 4ppm several days in a row, and the water stayed pink less than an hour.

I did a test with the pond water and determined that 7.5ppm was necessary to keep the water pink for several hours. I administered that today, yet only got an hour or so of pink water. I am worried going any higher could be harmful to my Koi. Any suggestions? Does the hardness of the water affect the dosage that much? At this point, there is little if any organic matter left, so that isn't the issue.

[saratogatan]

why are you doing PP ? Any specific bugs you targeting ?

More information is available on koivet.com.

Personally, I have not dosed the my pond beyond 4PPM. So, I don't know the effect of higher PPM.

stan

[michaeljc70]

Quote: Originally Posted by saratogatan why are you doing PP ? Any specific bugs you targeting ? More information is available on koivet.com. Personally, I have not dosed the my pond beyond 4PPM. So, I don't know the effect of higher PPM. stan

I was using KoiVet.com for some of my information. It says that the water should remain pink for 8-10 hours. I am not even getting an hour with the higher dosage.

I am not targeting a specific bug. I have a small pond and don't have the equipment to determine what is affecting them. I had one die a week or so ago and another is flashing, not staying with the others, etc. I may have to remove just that one and try treating him.

[saratogatan]

do you recall seeing anything abnormal on the dead koi ? before and after death.

Pelase tell us alitle more oabout your pond and koi. how many gallon ? water change frequency, and how much ? how many koi, size ? how often do you feed them ? how much each time ? Please also tell us about your filter system.

On the one flashing, does it labour when breathing (moving its gill cover more visibly than other ?) staying at the water surface ? can you net the koi and check for anything abnormal ? it will be rally helpful if you can provide us with some photos.

for now, hold on the PP.
stan

[KoiCop]

Michael . . .

All the pros will tell you: ID first and then treat. Check for a local AKCA club (AKCA Clubs); they might have a Koi Health Advisor who can assist you.

But if you decide to shoot in the dark, then I believe most of them would agree that Proforc C & Prazi combine to form the best 'shotgun' treatment.

PP has its uses and its advocates -- but it's not effective against many things that could be causing your problems.

Best wishes,

[michaeljc70]

Quote: Originally Posted by saratogatan do you recall seeing anything abnormal on the dead koi ? before and after death. Pelase tell us alitle more oabout your pond and koi. how many gallon ? water change frequency, and how much ? how many koi, size ? how often do you feed them ? how much each time ? Please also tell us about your filter system. On the one flashing, does it labour when breathing (moving its gill cover more visibly than other ?) staying at the water surface ? can you net the koi and check for anything abnormal ? it will be rally helpful if you can provide us with some photos. for now, hold on the PP. stan

The pond is around 500 gallons. I change between 10-20% of the water weekly, usually in 2-3 batches per week. I feed the Koi very little...what they will eat 2x day in a few minute period. I have tested the water and everything seems normal, though my water tests hard and alkaline. The Ph is around 7.8. I have a lot of plants and a biofilter, but doubt the filter is much needed given the plant to fish ratio and watching how much I feed them.

The Koi that died had nothing visibly wrong with him (I did look closely). The Koi that died as well as one other were sitting under lily pads occasionally, which is odd. In the past when I've had Koi with problems, they generally gasp for air in the open water. I netted the Koi that is currently exhibiting strange behavior and can't see anything wrong with it. It does sit under a lily pad sometimes for long periods, which the other Koi don't do. It is, however, eating.

[MikeM]

Where are you located? If you are in an area where high summer temps have arrived, it is not unusual for a 500 gallon pond to have temperature issues... resulting in oxygen deprivation, weakening immune system, etc. The flashing could be due to pH shift in a small volume of water or any number of other irritations unrelated to parasites. If it is a parasite, at this time of year in my area it most likely would be flukes. PP is not the best treatment for flukes. For your size pond maintained by a relative novice, for flukes I would recommend first trying the old remedy: "Lifebearer". It is available in most aquarium shops at a rather low price. It is not as effective as Fluke Tabs, but has similar organo-phosphate base. Other fluke treatments, such as Supaverm or Praziquantel, are a bit pricey. If it is flukes, and the cheaper Lifebearer does not work, then one of these better treatments will be needed. But, if it is not flukes, all but Prazi have the potential to cause harm and internal injury. Prazi is the most costly.

The idea that you don't need a biofilter due to the quantity of plants is faulty. It is a myth that plantings can utilize all the nitrogeneous waste created by fish and the debris that gets in a pond. It gets repeated all the time, and yes plants do use the nitrogen. But, to obtain balance, you would need the ratio seen in a lake. Think about it... even farm ponds become eutrophic and die if fish are kept in them and fed.

[saratogatan]

Michael,
There are a few bugs that are the 'normal suspect' when koi get sick and die. The med (or poison) can be roughly divided into 2 groups

1. fluke
poison : prazi, fenbendazole, fluke tab, and LifeBearer as mike suggested.

2. non-fluke : costia, trichodino,chilodonellena ..
poison : ProformC and QuickCure, both are MG+Formalin. QUickCUre is alot cheaper.

You can see that there is no overlapping of the poison between the 2 groups. Since we have no photos, and you only mentioned isolation as the syndrme, it is rather hard to guess which way to go.

Since there is no filter in your system, water quality may be your first problem. May I suggest that you test the water quality of your pond ? you may also try a big % water change, say 40%, and see how the sick koi react ?

stan

[michaeljc70]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Where are you located? If you are in an area where high summer temps have arrived, it is not unusual for a 500 gallon pond to have temperature issues... resulting in oxygen deprivation, weakening immune system, etc. The flashing could be due to pH shift in a small volume of water or any number of other irritations unrelated to parasites. If it is a parasite, at this time of year in my area it most likely would be flukes. PP is not the best treatment for flukes. For your size pond maintained by a relative novice, for flukes I would recommend first trying the old remedy: "Lifebearer". It is available in most aquarium shops at a rather low price. It is not as effective as Fluke Tabs, but has similar organo-phosphate base. Other fluke treatments, such as Supaverm or Praziquantel, are a bit pricey. If it is flukes, and the cheaper Lifebearer does not work, then one of these better treatments will be needed. But, if it is not flukes, all but Prazi have the potential to cause harm and internal injury. Prazi is the most costly. The idea that you don't need a biofilter due to the quantity of plants is faulty. It is a myth that plantings can utilize all the nitrogeneous waste created by fish and the debris that gets in a pond. It gets repeated all the time, and yes plants do use the nitrogen. But, to obtain balance, you would need the ratio seen in a lake. Think about it... even farm ponds become eutrophic and die if fish are kept in them and fed.

I am in Chicago.

I am not going to dispute I need a filter, the point I was trying to make is it is not overtaxed.

[KoiCop]

Michael . . .

You have a watergarden with lots of plants; in a koi pond, there's just the water and the koi.

And as you've seen, the problem with using PP in a watergarden is that the charge is quickly spent on the plants and doesn't last long enough to nuke any parasites and bacteria that might be harming your koi -- furthermore, many bugs can hide in the plants.

You'll find that the use of many of the other chemicals and medications on the market are likewise compromised by having plants in the pond. Sorry, but that's one of the major drawbacks of keeping koi in a watergarden.

So if you're going to shotgun, remove the plants before treating the pond. Then nuke the plants with a megadose of PP (say 20 ppm) before returning them to the pond.