Matsue Takigawa Kohaku for critique

[ppp]

Thanks again for your input, Jim. Am just wondering if the photoshopping might have had an effect on your views? I presume that photoshopping would make the beni redder and the shiroji whiter, hence making it look more finished than it actually is? I'm in the dark myself.

Over here, the focus seems to be on koi with the potential to grow really big. My dealer does not, for example, promote Isawa and Isa koi as he says they either don't really grow that big or they're really slow growers. He may be wrong of course. The market here is limited for koi that don't grow so big. Size apparently does matter. The point is that he is promoting koi to me that he is very confident of achieving 80cm, and if he's not confident of any particular fish that I like, he says so too. I can see many koi in his big pond which are comfortably past the 80cm mark. That could of course be a marketing gimmick as I certainly feel more hopeful on my koi after seeing his koi. I can buy some of those 80cm gosanke for as little as USD3,000, because either the pattern is not great or their skin quality is not the best. I'm paying much more for my tosais and nisais. 10 out of my 26 koi cost tategoi prices, even at tosai size. This kohaku is not one of them altho I'm excited about it all the same. No doubt some will fail, but I remain hopeful. Bearing in mind that I have 3 males, a chagoi, a beni kikokuryu, a hi utsuri and a yamabuki, none of which command prices as high as top notch gosanke, I think I have invested pretty heavily on top notch gosanke which have a more than decent chance to grow past 80cm. A couple of my fish were AJKS prize winners/contenders.

In any case, I don't really mind 75cm koi as long as they have solid girth. They look more imposing than an 80cm fish with a weaker girth.

[Brian]

Quote: Originally Posted by ppp I got this 33cm female kohaku from this year's Narita auction in April. I'm pretty excited about this one, so would appreciate your harshest critique on this fish. It's still in the mud pond in Japan and I'll probably only get it in December, on time for Christmas. Takigawa bloodline is famous for being very fast growers and enormous sizes achieved. Bentley, the 97cm koi which won the last ZNA Show in Japan, was a Takigawa.

Hi ppp,

Think you may have your facts a little wrong here. Bentley was bred by Momotaro, and was owned by a ZNA hobbyist also named Takigawa from Shimane prefecture. No relation to the breeder from Hiroshima at all.

[JasPR]

wow! Well I would certainly defer to a dealer that can rountinely grow fish past 80 cm! He is a true master professional, no doubt, so stick with that dealer! And best of luck--- JR

[simon]

Brian got there before me, on the info about the hobbyist, I think you have purchased a kohaku from Matsue nishikigoi center in Matsue not takigawa koi farm hiroshima. I was there in March and they showed me photo's of koi going to narita auction. For some reason I cannot view your picture to see if its one of the four I saw going to the auction. Matsue kohaku are from Lizuka sensuke line, producing great body lines and jumbo koi. Your kohaku may well be from there famous parent Milko (zna gc 2006) Lizuka san told me she was over a metre now. All the koi I saw going to narita auction were excellent, I would doubt that breeders would put male and tateshita to narita's auction as many breeders are using narita's auction to boost there companies profile now. As it attracts so many of the who's who of the koi world. Would like to see the pics come december.

[JasPR]

Do you believe that a tosai can be sexed 100%? JR

[MikeM]

Hmmmm. Yep. About half, anyway.

[JasPR]

Well, I know for a fact that not all fish can be sexed at one year of age. If truth, you get very 'male' males and very 'female' females very early in a percentage. And from there hints from color and skin type help a little more. But sexual maturity is still a ways off and so rough skin, pec fin feeling, vent opening etc are all just not 100% reliable. I have seen EXPERTS give up on fish much older than even two years as it is too hard a call. Here's one that got thrown back as the breeder could not be 100% certain and the Singapore hobbyist required a guarantee---- JR

[ppp]

Brian and Simon,

As I mentioned to koiczar and Aquitori before, I'm probably mistaken about the Takigawa link. Nobuo Takigawa is a Japanese hobbyist who owns Bentley which is Momotaro-bred. My apologies about that. I hear though that Nobuo Takigawa has a big collection of huge koi and Matsue borrows some of his koi for breeding. Maybe someone can tell me whether this is true or not.

Jim,

I'm not saying my dealer guarantees size or anything like that. It's just that he goes for the bloodlines that are famous for big size and reasonably fast growth. That coupled with his eye for good body structures from his many years of experience. And he always asks breeders for his "best tosai or best nisai", that's why they're so expensive. That's all, nothing more. There's no guarantee in anything, but all I was saying is that I reckon my chances of getting a jumbo (over 80cm) end result is a lot higher than most other people, that's all. Buying koi is all about probabilities. Getting a great koi from buying from the tategoi, tateshita and general grade ponds are perhaps 80%, 10% and 1% respectively. Of course these are just my best guess figures, but I think you get the drift.

As I said, some koi will disappoint and fail, but that makes the successes all the more sweeter, doesn't it? And that's what keeps us addicted to the hobby!


Regarding sex, I agree with Simon's comments regarding the less famous breeders using the Narita auction as a showcase for their koi. I actually wanted the koi right away but was too late as the breeder took the koi back to his farm immediately after the auction and threw it into the mud pond. Japanese breeders hardly ever throw male fish into their mud ponds given their limited space plus the fact that possible spawnings disrupt mud pond growth (unlikely in a tosai pond anyway). Jim, of course you're right about possible mistakes in sexing koi at one year old, even Japanese breeders occasionally make that mistake despite their years of experience. I'll hang on tight to my female guarantee.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by ppp Brian and Simon, As I mentioned to koiczar and Aquitori before, I'm probably mistaken about the Takigawa link. Nobuo Takigawa is a Japanese hobbyist who owns Bentley which is Momotaro-bred. My apologies about that. I hear though that Nobuo Takigawa has a big collection of huge koi and Matsue borrows some of his koi for breeding. Maybe someone can tell me whether this is true or not.

I know Matsue barrowed the 2005 ZNA GC for breeding. The Kohak Scarlet Queen was used for breeding at Torazo. The 2 time ZNA GC Sakura Hime was used by Momotaro for breeding as well as Bentley. Mr. Takigawa has many fine Jumbo fish to be used as Oyagoi if asked by the breeder.

[ppp]

Thanks, aquitori. You guys just have an incredible amount of knowledge! Someone must start a koi-based trivial pursuit game online..