Matsue Takigawa Kohaku for critique

[ppp]

I got this 33cm female kohaku from this year's Narita auction in April. I'm pretty excited about this one, so would appreciate your harshest critique on this fish. It's still in the mud pond in Japan and I'll probably only get it in December, on time for Christmas.

Takigawa bloodline is famous for being very fast growers and enormous sizes achieved. Bentley, the 97cm koi which won the last ZNA Show in Japan, was a Takigawa.

[koiczar]

Nice body. I can't comment on the beni as it has been photoshopped. I'd really like to see an untouched photo before commenting further.

Also, my understanding was Bentley is one of Momotaro's famous oyagoi. It is not from Takegawa.

[ppp]

I'm not so expert at telling whether a photo has been photo shopped or not. The photo was taken off the Narita auction booklet.

I may have been confused because Bentley, whilst being Momotaro-bred, was owned by a Mr Nobuo Takigawa, and I'm not sure if he has anything to do with Matsue Koi Farm or not. In any case, this koi is my second Takigawa fish and I was expressly told that the oyagoi of the first fish was 97cm long. I'm not aware of many kohaku oyagoi which are 97cm long. Are there many?

[MikeM]

Nice body structure and entertaining pattern. I question the wrap of the Beni for a koi you want to grow over 80cm. It does not seem to wrap as deeply as I think you want. Perhaps on the koi's right side it does? The photo makes it difficult to say. I think you will see the pattern "rising" onto the dorsal area, leaving the sides white at full maturity. Cannot comment on the Beni quality. That's the worse I can come up with. Nice one.

[ppp]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Nice body structure and entertaining pattern. I question the wrap of the Beni for a koi you want to grow over 80cm. It does not seem to wrap as deeply as I think you want. Perhaps on the koi's right side it does? The photo makes it difficult to say. I think you will see the pattern "rising" onto the dorsal area, leaving the sides white at full maturity. Cannot comment on the Beni quality. That's the worse I can come up with. Nice one.

Thanks for your comments, Mike. What you're saying is that the beni on the koi's left side (ie right side from our point of view) does not stretch sufficiently towards the lateral line? It's possible, sometimes it's hard to tell from just one photograph, but unfortunately that's all I have to work on for the time being. I've never even seen the koi in person, just bid for it based on the photograph. My dealer wanted to bid for it, but he backed off when I told him I wanted to bid too. He's got a very good eye. Another factor is that I've got another Takigawa fish, one year older than this one, and it's developing very well in my pond. Snow white shiroji, razor sharp kiwa, decent beni quality and solid girth. Gives me some confidence on this bloodline.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by ppp Takigawa bloodline is famous for being very fast growers and enormous sizes achieved. Bentley, the 97cm koi which won the last ZNA Show in Japan, was a Takigawa.

I think you mean to say the Takigawa uses Sensuke bloodline that makes the fish grow big.

[JasPR]

You know, This is a tough one to answer. I LOVE the enthusiasum of koi keepers. And I try to be , believe it or not, positive and encouraging as much as honestly will allow.
But against all of the desire to be supportive is the underbelly of the hobby and the active misteaching spread by the marketing machines and dealer story tellers.

One in 500 koi born are keepers ( tategoi to tatehita even). From there, tateshita can be divided into chosen jumbos and pattern fish ( finishing males). Then you have a higher grade fish that also can be sold for show, pattern or as a result of forced grow out. All this really requires a consumer and serious collector to be on their toes and to understand what it is that they are looking at. This takes experience and this is why koi is the ultimate school of hard knocks.
The Brit's have an all wise and all telling expression when disappointment follows a purchase- " well, that's 'koi' ".

The fish PPP has posted is a photo shopped fish and possible male. It is a good grade. But it is not 'tategoi' within the context of PPP's expectations. In other words, this is not a tategoi for 97 cm. But still, it is a good fish with a good show pattern. I'd buy this fish for enjoyment over the next 3 to for years.

For comparison, here is a true nisai tategoi. Compare body structure of a fish that has potential to grow large Vs a fish that has been force grown. And then compare skin type for fish this age for each of the fish --

Again, sorry if I offend. Its always a hard call giving news over the Internet.

[dick benbow]

Jim, I think we all value your opinion and knowledge. To have you not continue to teach would be to deprive us all. I know we all value your sensitivity to people's feelings but again if we ask, what good would it do us to withhold what we need to learn from......

[ppp]

Aquitori,

You may be right about Sensuke. There's so much confusion brought about by similar names and I'm still fumbling around and learning.


Jim,

No offence taken at all. The whole idea of posting on this board is to hear comments from people like you who have far far more experience than myself. The fish was guaranteed female, so would your comments differ at all?

Very few offspring actually reach the size of the oyagoi. Obviously an isolated few do, otherwise the bloodline will not progress, but that precious few which do, I think the breeders could already guess early on and will likely keep the fish as future oyagoi. Others that had the potential to reach oyagoi size may in reality not reach it because we keepers may not have optimum pond conditions for the fish to realize its full potential.

For me, my expectations for this fish are not as high as 97cm (although that would be really nice, of course). I'd be very happy if it maxes out at 85-90cm.

The tategoi sanke you posted up was a nisai. Would assessing the body of a nisai be different from a tosai? My fish was tosai when I bought it (though it'll be nisai when I receive it) and I didn't pay tategoi price for it. Tategoi price for tosai are likely at least USD10,000. It wasn't cheap though, as you might expect from a high profile auction.

[JasPR]

PPP, hold onto that guarantee. The beni development and the harder white skin look male. But if it is female then she would naturally have a better shelf life and more future than a male.
Yes, the fish I posted is two years old and only 62 cm ( and she is a $10,000 fish). But she still have very young beni and lots of developing in that area yet to come. It is a three or four coat type beni development. And this fish is not half way thru yet. You want a fish to finish its beni and shiro development at an older age, ideally. In a sense, a super tategoi is one that 'suffers' from a kind of arrested development in skin maturity.

I assume you realize that big babies doesn't necessarily translate to big adults? You can manipulate fry growth with indoor heat and high feeding so that you get extra size in one and two year olds. But the fish will still only grow to be it's natural size at adulthood. The hint of this technique , by the way, is always in the beni development because with high heat and excess protein comes maturing beni. Very thick, bright beni can be a sign of certain lineage but just as often is a sign of finishing beni. I'm think'n, if female, yours gets to 70- 74 cm? As a good representation of modern koi with modern genetics.
Great difficulty in getting any koi past the 78-80 cm mark. 32 inches is a HUGE fish and really pretty rare. Whereas 74 cm ( 29 plus inches) is getting fairly common. That last 3 or 4 inches is a bear!! And honestly 90 cm ( 36 inches) is very very unlikely.
In the end, you need that large mouth, wide and broad head, broad tail tube and wide back bone. Not always of course, but 99% of the time, you can bet on a fish with large bone structure. - JR