Air-domes make kois couch potatoes

[ppp]

Hwong,

I've just started a month long renovation on my pond. The 2 air-rings over my BDs will be taken off. Not because of any huddling effect when they're there but because I don't like the turbulence on the water surface. Removing them makes my surface calmer and allows a clearer view of the koi. Obviously I'll be taking steps to compensate the loss of the 2 air-rings.

If I notice any difference in my kois behaviour in a month's time after the renovation, I'll let you know.

[mitten]

Does it matter where you live?

Yes. And I have to make an assumption that tropical/semi tropical climate may have been part of the reason for the kois being observed swimming around the air dome. Were they seeking comfort like we would by sitting in front of a fan? If all I've got is a fan and it is 90F+ guess what? Couch potato.

[MikeM]

Erns: You make an accurate observation and a good point. This is not the best board for someone asking the usual beginner koi health question, nor for obtaining patient responses to basic questions. We should be a bit gentler in some responses so the people asking and lurking can learn without getting offended or angry. But, I do not think we should "dumb it down" or give legitimacy to the notion of keeping koi as annual ornaments for the watergarden.

Let's face it. The vast bulk of koi sold in every country in the world that I'm aware of, including Japan, are sold with the idea that they will not be grown to their full genetic potential. Breeders and dealers know the vast bulk of their sales will be dead in 24 months. If the koi were actually grown for a full life span, the U.S. would currently have a koi population of about ...a dozen koi for every man, woman and child? Probably even more! The profit in koi is in selling all the "stuff" to succeed in keeping cheap tosai alive for a summer season in the garden. Then selling more "stuff" to solve the problems so another group of cheap fish are kept another season the following year. With this continuing until the person gives up on fish, fills in the pond, takes up goldfish or actually learns what is involved in keeping an animal as large as a carp. Then the value provided by the handful of dealers focused on quality fish can be recognized. Until then, the idea of spending even $75 on a fish is shocking... you can get 2" koi for $3.99 at the discount pet shop, you know. And, when that 2" koi gets to be 18" it could be worth a thousand dollars! The 19 year-old working at the shop said so.

It can be painful to burst folks' bubbles, but it is a far better service performed than encouraging the delusions. ...I do agree that we can be kinder than we sometimes are. Folks don't want to think they've been mis-educated, or mis-led. Impatience is not often a strong point for those who have difficulty realizing how hard it can be for the mis-informed to begin seeing through the myths and quackery.

[ppp]

Erns and Mike,

Don't be so harsh! As a relative newbie myself (not speaking for Hwong who I think is much more experienced than myself), I realize how difficult it is for a normal hobbyist to take that big step up towards being a more discerning serious hobbyist. It's very often so frustrating. When I ask 10 different hobbyists about something, I can receive 10 different answers. Sometimes dealers and even breeders have ulterior motives when they tell you certain things. And occasionally fellow hobbyists let pride and ego get in the way when they pass comments. It's not easy for me to separate fact and reality from myth and dreams. And that's why I'm here. To learn.

There is of course a mountain of knowledge in the archives here and I frequently search to find my answers. But at times the question I have has not been discussed before, so I post a thread to ask. While it may be a basic question to you "old dogs", it really helps people like me in our quest to move up the experience ladder, so to speak. Sometimes it's just to get second opinions to confirm something.

Yes, this forum is famous (infamous?) for senior posters being (ahem) slightly rude at times to relative newbies asking questions that are too basic. I realise this, but I'm still sticking around because I know this is the best way to learn (other than the long and expensive way of making the same mistakes that every other hobbyist makes). Remember Jackie Chan being humiliated by his kungfu master at the start? Other boards tend to be less serious in nature and many of the posters are small time garden ponders who salivate at slightly colourful mutts. I don't get a sense that I can learn much from them. Here is the best place for serious koi kichi. Hope I won't be chased away anytime soon!

[dick benbow]

this has been an excellent discussion and thanks to the originator for starting it......
I'd love to be in a financial position to build a new koi pond. If I did it would be according to the japanese "river system" concept. I think if engineered properly, it does the best job of eliminating wastes while encouraging the koi to excercise against the current. It has no airdomes but the bakki shower and other submerged media are engulfed in heavy air.

much of this concept was covered in KB back issues on featured articles of
japanese national winners and thier home ponds.

while I think the airdome idea is a good maintenance concept to provide air and sweep wastes, I don't think it's conducive to encouraging koi to enjoy their surroundings and encourage healthy behavior. and actually the headline
to me is not that far fetched.....

[dubtaco]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow I'd love to be in a financial position to build a new koi pond. If I did it would be according to the japanese "river system" concept.

I assume "river system" is the same as "streamflow", I was following a few ponds builds that took this approach and it does seem to be simple and effective. I don't ever remember seeing a thread here about it, but it would make a good discussion.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM you can get 2" koi for $3.99 at the discount pet shop, you know. And, when that 2" koi gets to be 18" it could be worth a thousand dollars! The 19 year-old working at the shop said so. It can be painful to burst folks' bubbles, but it is a far better service performed than encouraging the delusions. ...I do agree that we can be kinder than we sometimes are. Folks don't want to think they've been mis-educated, or mis-led. Impatience is not often a strong point for those who have difficulty realizing how hard it can be for the mis-informed to begin seeing through the myths and quackery.

Hi Mike,

I am so glad you brought this point up. We do get a lot of people that come into our store thinking that their 18" - 24" pet store crapagoi is worth thousands of dollars. You should see the look of excitment on their faces when they proclaim that they have these very large Koi worth thousands of dollars. Sometimes it is very difficult to tell them the truth, but when asked we always ask them what they paid for the Koi and then tell them that that is probably what they are worth. More often than not, they get very angry at us. The truth hurts doesn't it?

[hwong]

To digress a bit from the topic, and to give a little background about my koi keeping experience. Whilst I have been keeping fish and kois since 12, I only started serious koi keeping 5 years ago and a very active member in the Malaysian ZNA chapter. I was also a keen competitor but the last 2 years, less showing coz I cudnt juggle the time to show and be the show organising secretary at the same time.

I am a strong strong believer that anyone can enjoy competing in a show and one does not need big bucks to win. You play at the level that you can afford. Play at the smaller sizes if you have a small budget and go for the max if you have no budget constraint. I have won prizes with kois that cost from as little as USD70 to fairly expensive kois. These kois would have at least one year's grooming from me. Modesty aside, our shows are keenly contested.

Coming back to the topic at hand. I am into my second pond which is 28 feet long and 11 feet wide. One half of the pond avergaes 4 ft deep and the other half 5 ft deep. I have 2 bottom drains and yes with airdome fitted over them. I have 36 K liters running off a shower system on one end and also a mid water feed at the opposite end.

DIck, You siad "while I think the airdome idea is a good maintenance concept to provide air and sweep wastes, I don't think it's conducive to encouraging koi to enjoy their surroundings and encourage healthy behavior"

I power each of my airdomes its own 100 watt Hi-Blow. The turbulence is actually quite strong and I have trouble staying still when trying to do some adjustments with the thing running. I am sure the kois will also be fighting the turbulence. Not sure if this is too much air


Until recently I never did pay close attention to the way the kois swam. The turbulence created by the air didnt help either. Then on one day while visiting a friend's pond some one commented that the kois dont swim the length of the pond eventhough it is 23 ft long. After a few more similar observations of other similarly configured ponds, we realised the phenomenon. SO we became more observant and soon noticed that kois do swim differently in ponds that do not have airdomes in the center. This got us to ask the breeders who also make it their business to groom their customers kois to enter major shows like the All Japan and ZNA shows. They eat, sleep, shit with kois. Surely they must know a thing or two...

Since we have already heard from the "experts" why bother to ask people here? As said , we dont take breeders' words as gospel.

The fact is, a friend is building a new home and his existing pond is experiencing the huddling thing and he doesnt want to spend money to make mistakes with his new pond. Our regular group members are as lost as he is ; hence I thought the learned folks here will have an answer.

PPP, I beilieve you are PH... If I may suggest, You still provide for the the 2 unirings and use a timer to turn them on when you need to do the sweep. For a pond with a big foot print like yours, you may need the vacuum effect to keep the floors debri free. For the 24/7 air supply, I really dont know where the ideal position is.

Miiten, Our water temps averages 25~28 degrees C..

Come on fellas, lets rake our brains to help this friend of ours. JR?...

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by hwong Don, Its not about having enuf air but position of the air and its effect of swimming behaviour. Is your pond rectangular or square? Appreciate observations of your kois' swimming pattern.

hwong . . .

We have a non-conforming shape which you can see at:

Show us your pond

Best described as a rounded L shape, it's 21' x 14' and has 4 airstones on the centerlines. The koi swim every which way, so I'm afraid we're not much help for the purposes of your discussion.

[ppp]

Quote: Originally Posted by hwong PPP, I beilieve you are PH... If I may suggest, You still provide for the the 2 unirings and use a timer to turn them on when you need to do the sweep. For a pond with a big foot print like yours, you may need the vacuum effect to keep the floors debri free. For the 24/7 air supply, I really dont know where the ideal position is.

Hwong, you know I'm a relative newbie and by and large, I think I go along with whatever Luke advises me to do. I've got 5 BDs, of which only 2 have unirings over them. The other 3 do a decent job without the suction effect of the rings anyway.

You may have read from my posts in other threads that I'm compensating the loss of the 2 air-rings with 12 feet total of micro bubble diffusers under the waterfall and in the filter, and coupling these with an oxygen generator. I think it should more than suffice. Cheers and thanks for your tips.

By the way, I notice some koi actually like the air column and occasionally swim through it.