which is more important in a pond...

[jnorth]

Ok I'll bite . There is a Southern States store near here that has a nasty little water feature in their outdoor section. They have what I would loosely call a chagoi that is about 25" in it(and some goldfish). The pond is so shallow that in some parts this chagoi beaches itself to get around with its dorsal sticking out of the water. Max depth in this pond is one foot but the chagoi likes to hang out in the water weeds in the shallow part (I guess its really trying to hide). This chagoi has been in this "pond" for years. Its all scarred up and looks like it just hates life. I've been watching this poor koi for years flopping around in that pond. On more then one occassion I've had to ask them to please put more water in it as the water evaporates quickly in the summer leaving this poor koi begging for water. They don't see a problem with it though so.....

[weesec01]

Quote: Originally Posted by moikoi the lenght or depth ? i have heard stories about koi growing to 35" in a 20" deep pond. possible?

Not to mention about koi development in term of quality, I will take your question whether is it possible to grow? It is quite impossible for any koi to grow up to this length in a 20" deep pond except for chagoi/magoi; no matter how, they will grow and eat and grow..

However, I'll advise to keep koi < 30cm in small pond like 1k to 2k gal and let them grow > 35cm before transfer them to the big pond. The obvious reason is that small koi may not be able to catch their foods. Just imagine in your 20,000 gal pond with all the kois >65cm and you have a few small kois <30cm. What size of pellets should you feed? It is always advisable to have almost same size of kois in the pond. Is anyone disagreed? Open question!!

[JasPR]

What is the definition of grow? Is it how LONG a koi can get? If so, that is only one dimension of growth. There are at least three types of growth in koi. And energy is diverted to these growth patterns based on season, general health, diet, environment and age. So 'How long?' is only one simplistic test of a koi's health and progress.

JR

[moikoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I tend to agree with Steve C on this one-- volume and stocking size first then dimensions. And large surface space is really good from a gas exchange standpoint and deep ponds are really good from a development stand point. But best of all is a large pond that is also deep. I can put a 30 inch koi in a small shallow pond and keep it there for years. It will not improve and likely slim down. i can put a koi in a shallow big pond and it will grow long- very long in warm water. But for the BODY LINE to be right, I need a deep pond. It really comes down to how sophisticated your taste is- many ways to grow a koi long or fat but a very few ways to grow koi large and well proportioned. - JR

koi kept in a shallow pond would end up looking like a football ?

[JasPR]

Maybe or maybe long and thin? A lot depends on current, diet and wintering. Koi are products of their genes and their environment. The very best odds of producing great koi come from well designed ponds ( large and with great surface to deph ratio) and deep ponds ( providing stability, well beginning, swimming dimension and additional dilution volume for a given footprint) JR

[koiczar]

JR

So what ratio do you recommend? Is 20% depth to length good? How about width to length to depth - any suggestions there?

Mike

[MikeM]

It will be interesting what JR has to say about such a ratio. I've not read anything addressing that concept. The discussion is always about best depth/minimum depth; best length/minimum length.

There is an article in one of the early Nichirins (or maybe Rinko before Nichirin was published?)that impressed me. It discussed the idea of pond dimensions aligned with the koikeeper's goal. It suggested that length should be in the range of 8-10 times the length of the koi desired to be raised so the fish have appropriate free swimming room to dash across the pond, using all the swimming muscles; and that width should be 4-5 times the desired length of the koi to give comfortable turning radius for a full speed veer; and that depth should be no less than twice the length, but preferably 3 times the length to give vertical exercise space. So, for 30" koi, a pond 20' to 25' long, 10-12.5' wide and 5' to 7.5' deep was said to be suitable. For 36" koi, 24'-30' long, 12'-15' wide and 6'-9' deep. The ratio happens to be length is twice the width, and depth is half the width, but the dimensions were based on the concept of necessary exercise space for a semi-natural range of movement.

One can quibble over these numbers, but the concept seems correct to me.

[JasPR]

Morning Mike, honestly I don't susbscribe to that kind of thinking anymore. I think that koi are tosai for about a year, Nisai for about a year sansai for about a year and then adults for the rest of their life ( 20- 26 years).

So Unless the hobbyist is a tosai or nisai freak, or going to trade out fish once they are no longer in the 'puupy phase', I think a koi pond should be built for adult fish.

So to my way of thinking, a pond needs to be 5 feet deep. This provides swimming dimension, volume for footprint , security and parameter stability. From here, if you want to house jumbos, are a paratrooper type or just love ringing every ounce of genetic potential out of a fish then keep digging! 6-7-8-9 feet ( I think ten and twelve or fifteen feet does get a little ridiculous and more about penis size than function) .
As far as ratio goes, I do think it is wise to make the surface greater, the deeper you go to get the most out of the two considerations - environment and atmospheric contact and also the fish's needs.
the one warning I would give a beginner- be careful what you wish for! IF you make a pond very deep, you have to MOVE all that water. Filters need to be large, turn over huge and pumps- numerous! Treating is a bear, as is just simple netting. And the water and electric bill will be 'impressive'. So it is one thing to get the pond constructed and another to run it long term! I suspect that on the 'two coasts' a 30,000-40,000 gallon pond costs as much as $4000-$5000 a year to run and heat? And $1000 or so to feed. This can get very wearing on a person over the long haul. And in retirement, it can represent a real drag on a fixed income. So for the average middle and upper middle class hobbyist, maybe 7,000- 15,000 is best? Then we are talking about a prototype pond being what? 20 X 10 X 5 = 7500, 22 x 12 X 5 feet deep = 9900 gallons. 24 x 12 X 6 = 12,960. 24 X 14 X 7 = 17,640.

[Eugeneg]

[

There is an article in one of the early Nichirins (or maybe Rinko before Nichirin was published?)that impressed me. It discussed the idea of pond dimensions aligned with the koikeeper's goal. It suggested that length should be in the range of 8-10 times the length of the koi desired to be raised so the fish have appropriate free swimming room to dash across the pond, using all the swimming muscles; and that width should be 4-5 times the desired length of the koi to give comfortable turning radius for a full speed veer; and that depth should be no less than twice the length, but preferably 3 times the length to give vertical exercise space. So, for 30" koi, a pond 20' to 25' long, 10-12.5' wide and 5' to 7.5' deep was said to be suitable. For 36" koi, 24'-30' long, 12'-15' wide and 6'-9' deep. The ratio happens to be length is twice the width, and depth is half the width, but the dimensions were based on the concept of necessary exercise space for a semi-natural range of movement.

Mike
I have read several such articles but in each one it did mention that was what was recomended when the fish came out of the mud ponds . I once time read the estimated number of mud ponds in Japan and it was staggering but we have a tendancy to put our heads in the sand when it comes to mud ponds . There are 100g ponds around but in benefits to fish I do not think any would match my mud pond and that cost me 4g actually I needed fill and it was going to cost me 6g for that so my saving was 2g to put in a mud pond .
Regards
Eugene

[schildkoi]

Hmmm, if I had a peeny for everytime I use that phrase!

Pond demensions are but one factor in the overall design of the entire system. There are no set "ratios" per say but some simple guidelines to consider as part of the overall system design. JR brings out a lot of those in his post above. With a standard 9' Japanese net as an example (plus head size), a six foot deep pond, 11' wide is within perameters for netting, Wider and or deeper and netting becomes a real challenge without the use of a siene.

I utilize a segmented form of design. 12' diameter, 6' deep segemnts which equals about 5000 US gallons, each with their own sub systems (filtartion pumps, etc) each of these systems are match for that volume of water. Change one detail (diameter or depth) and the whole design system changes...even if the volume remains constant (due to effective area of the drain as an example).

The original design for D&G's pond in Dallas was for about 12,000 US gallons (24' X 12' X 6' deep). Well, mid stream during excavation, the contracted suggested going to 10' of depth and away they went. I stopped by the following weekend and noticed the 10' depth and went, "Huh?"

This then required a total redesign of the pond. It went from a duel filter/drain system to a tri system. The airpumps had to be changed due to the linear pistons not having sufficient capacity at 10' of depth (due to the added back pressure). TPR and GPR placements had to be adjusted, a added midlevel pickup was added, The skimmer circuit was adjusted and I am sure other details.

When we look at length verses width, we not only have to think of the "function side" of things, we also must look at the "form" side of the equation. We (humans) interpret spacial relationships as well. We look at things and interpret how things fit or don't fit with their surroundings...either "style wise" or "scale wise". These also need to be considered in designing the "system" but now as I said, on the "form" side of the equation verses the "function" side of the equation.

Steve