K1 - K3 - K Chips ?

[JasPR]

I love when dealers fight with each other! LOls

Seriously, this is no shot at k3, 4 or 5! Most media we use is 'borrowed' from other industries. the media I use is from the oil industry. The ribbon that low enders use in many of their filters is actually packing tape used in wearhouses. many of the ceramic pieces evolved from ceramics used for polishing in factories.The list goes on. The point is they have ideal properties for bacterial proliferation, they are inert and they provide huge surface space when compared to rocks and pebbles ( poor packing properties in the stones)

As for 'other species', I'm a big diversified species guy. But not a massive ecosystem guy! A lush biofilm will have a dominating group of nitrifiers, supporting aerobic bacterial species, some zones of anaerobic species, some predator species, protozoa grazers, photo bacteria, fungi, diatoms and algaes. Anything else is white noise. These species all make a living on or in the biofilm's matrix. So while the biofilm imports and exports workers and members that work for the environmental situation and nutrients that are available on a routine basis, this is not the same as building Noah's arch of the invisible or bearly invisible.

So Bill, what I'm saying is, not that these invertebrates don't exist in cracks or cervices of media. But rather, they are not needed and worse, they impact the water as all things do, as part of the mass of living organisms that take from the water and add to the water. That is a tricky system to maintain, and the truth is, once you treat with a few chemcials they are likely killed in the process.
Here is what I don't understand- Momotaro insists on taking perfectly good biomedia and prescribing magical powers to it. The rep for Sipirex did the same in the early 1990s. And our Dutch freind is doing the same for his media. I can only assume that business requires one's product to stand out above the rest so an angle is needed. What will make me different than the next guy's media? ironically, the media we are discussing is a superior media for the dynamic or moving filter design. No trapping, movement for eddies to form to encourage the electro attraction--- all great. But a home for ' delicate other species' makes no practical sense at all, I'm afraid. Certainly no benefit I can see? - JR

[bekko]

Quote: K1 creates additional organic waste or BOD

The amount of organic waste and BOD is determined by the feed input. Everything that goes into the pond must come back out of the pond - no more and no less.

Quote: I'm a big diversified species guy. But not a massive ecosystem guy

Biodiversity creates stability. From the fish's perspective stability is a good thing and stability gets you the most bang for the buck from your system. Like it or not, it's an ecosystem down there because of (and defined by) the inter-relationships between species.

I have a lot of respect for the engineers at AnoxKaldnes, but the K-chip thing has never made much sense to me. The beauty and design of K-1 and K-3 are the micro-habitats which are protected from sheering in the moving bed configuration. K-chips are marketed as an addendum to K-1 which provides protected micro-habitat. It seems like there is plenty of room for a Vorticella colony and a few flatworms in a piece of K-1.

-ste

[JasPR]

biodiversity is a pretty politically correct word I think. It's crept into even science these days. But a closed system is not a place for a food chain. Yet a closed system IS a place of building nutrient on an ongoing basis. This is because the stocking level is way out of wack with the volume of the system and IF we allowed and encouraged all ecological potential, the system would crash. This is why we don't want to trap organics or encourage frogs, newts, turtles, insects, excess protozoa, green water, leeches, flexibacter, free fungi, molds, fish lice, lernera, -- ALL part of a natural ecosystem capable of living in a pond. So while it nice to talk about loads of species in an artificial closed system, be careful what you wish for. - JR

In addition to that though, what keeps biofilm from spreading into the waffle area of the discs? Is it trained not to or are the 'gentlier forms' able to chase it away? ( This should be good--- )

[PapaBear]

While I do think it is a bit of completely unnecessary marketing nonsense (just like "fir") here what I got from looking the stuff up back when it first came out.
The K-Chips are functional microturd catchers that provide a happy home to $#!t eating micro-mini-wannabe-insects. The critters eat the mini-turds and convert them to nitrogen based wastes that the nitrobacters living in the K1 and K3 are able to process directly.
It really sounds like the angle they're working is to one-up the BH media in terms of digesting solids without pulverizing or "fir".

[HEADACHE6]

From what I was told (Dealer , but not Bill) , it's the material that the media is made of , that helps to promote the different "Bugs" from one media to another (K1,K3,K-Chips) . Not the new "Trained or Chased Away" theory LOL !

Bill says that there is 0 difference between K1 & K3 , except the size . Yet I've read & been told there is a difference other then Size ?

As much as I want you guys to say what ever you want or need to say to make your point . Please , for me , keep "Some" of this info at the 101 Class level .

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 ...keep "Some" of this info at the 101 Class level .

I think mine qualified for a non-credit pre-101 level post

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I love when dealers fight with each other! LOls Here is what I don't understand- Momotaro insists on taking perfectly good biomedia and prescribing magical powers to it. The rep for Sipirex did the same in the early 1990s. And our Dutch freind is doing the same for his media. I can only assume that business requires one's product to stand out above the rest so an angle is needed. What will make me different than the next guy's media? ironically, the media we are discussing is a superior media for the dynamic or moving filter design. No trapping, movement for eddies to form to encourage the electro attraction--- all great. But a home for ' delicate other species' makes no practical sense at all, I'm afraid. Certainly no benefit I can see? - JR

JR, thanks for the laugh, it is great to start your day with some humor.

My point on this new media is that it is an expensive alternative for something that is not needed.

[MysticKoi]

Well, I don't see it so much as hype, as it does house micro animals as stated. However, as Dick mentioned, I can't tell if there is any benefit to using them, and so that was my primary interest in obtaining facts and opinions... really!

Anyway, what I can tell you from experience is that even after a year, the disks in our display Nexus still contain a healthy colony. I suspect that the shearing effect prevents the bacteria from gaining an advantage on the media? Not sure, but certainly it is not a function of "training" . In addition, I could not tell you if chemo-therapy has any effect on these colonies, as I've not had to treat this pond at all in the 15 months it has been running. So, bottom line... it appears that the "consensus" may be that the consumption of micro organic debris may have some allure, but in the overall picture will not provide any measurable improvement to water quality?

Russ... Thanks again for making your "point" so eloquently! Hehe!!!!

Kind Regards,
Bill

[KoiCop]

I find myself persuaded by JR arguments that biodiversity in a closed system is not in and of itself a good thing -- the test being whether it adds to or subtracts from that which is beneficial to the koi. Classic cost/benefit analysis.

So if we assume that K1 & K3 maximize available surface area for aerobic nitrifying bacteria (a good thing) then we'd have to agree that replacing a portion of one's K1/K3 with another media (biochips, which have an inferior total surface area but which promote biodiversity) would be a bad thing -- unless conclusively demonstrated that what they bring to the table outweighs that which has been lost.

And that case has not been made. At least not here.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by MysticKoi Russ... Thanks again for making your "point" so eloquently! Hehe!!!! Kind Regards, Bill

Again, you are welcome. I did not realize having an opinion was a bad thing. I guess for you it is a problem because it differs from what you believe, or what you want to believe. This is an open forum, last time I checked, and if I feel a product is all "hype", then I should be able to express that. It seems that this is the general consensus here anyway. Would it have been better if I sugar coated it for you?