Wanted to run something by you guys....got some info. seems incorrect

[kyari]

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all of the help and info. I went to Koi shack and I use them to, for the beginner stuff.
I just wanted to run something by you guys, since you guys are pros at this, I was just putting in my post about having to PP the pond. And what my pH is and all. I got a reply back where someone told me I should have PP the filter and not by passed it, they asked what about the parasites in the filter. I am assuming they have not had to PP treat and did not know it would kill my two colonies of beneficial bacteria had I not by passed. Was that correct to by-pass, the Koi Vet said so. They also said that I should not mess with the pH of my municipal water, I keep my pH at 7.6. My tap water pH is low at 6.4, I have checked it. It is not buffered at all and the KH is low to. I buffer mine with Oyster Shell and my KH is 120, which is ideal. They mentioned that Koi can adapt to any pH and that I should not mess with the tap water's pH. Just wondering if that is correct or bad advice. They also mentioned that there is alot of mis-information on the net, and I know there is, but any info. I got was from trusted sources, books, Dr. Johnson's book, and trusted forums like this one. I don't use info. off sites that sell pond stuff, knowing some things maybe just to sell products, I have myself seen mis leading info.
I just wondered if there is any basis for the PP/ filter thing or if I did the right thing, by by-passing it, oh, and my Nitrification cycle was not harmed at all. Thank goodness. And the not messing with the pH was that correct? I think leaving the tap at 6.4 is too low, unless their rationale was if I kept it as it was maybe it would be less likely to suffer a pH crash, but I am well buffered against a crash with a good KH from the oyster shell.
Thanks, I hope I can make heads or tails out of it, I am just trying to make sure that this person was either not correct, or I am doing something wrong by by-pass filter on PP treatment and trying to keep pH at 7.6.
Any info. I would greatly appreciate it, just want to have the correct info.
Thanks so much, as always, you guys are great.
Carrie
This person said they were in a Koi club, so I thought I would ask you guys, they might have had some ration behind it, maybe with the no messing with pH thing, to avoid a crash? If well buffered shouldn't it be pretty protected?

[Russell Peters]

Originally Posted by kyari

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all of the help and info. I went to Koi shack and I use them to, for the beginner stuff.
I just wanted to run something by you guys, since you guys are pros at this, I was just putting in my post about having to PP the pond. And what my pH is and all. I got a reply back where someone told me I should have PP the filter and not by passed it, they asked what about the parasites in the filter. I am assuming they have not had to PP treat and did not know it would kill my two colonies of beneficial bacteria had I not by passed. Was that correct to by-pass, the Koi Vet said so. They also said that I should not mess with the pH of my municipal water, I keep my pH at 7.6. My tap water pH is low at 6.4, I have checked it. It is not buffered at all and the KH is low to. I buffer mine with Oyster Shell and my KH is 120, which is ideal. They mentioned that Koi can adapt to any pH and that I should not mess with the tap water's pH. Just wondering if that is correct or bad advice. They also mentioned that there is alot of mis-information on the net, and I know there is, but any info. I got was from trusted sources, books, Dr. Johnson's book, and trusted forums like this one. I don't use info. off sites that sell pond stuff, knowing some things maybe just to sell products, I have myself seen mis leading info.
I just wondered if there is any basis for the PP/ filter thing or if I did the right thing, by by-passing it, oh, and my Nitrification cycle was not harmed at all. Thank goodness. And the not messing with the pH was that correct? I think leaving the tap at 6.4 is too low, unless their rationale was if I kept it as it was maybe it would be less likely to suffer a pH crash, but I am well buffered against a crash with a good KH from the oyster shell.
Thanks, I hope I can make heads or tails out of it, I am just trying to make sure that this person was either not correct, or I am doing something wrong by by-pass filter on PP treatment and trying to keep pH at 7.6.
Any info. I would greatly appreciate it, just want to have the correct info.
Thanks so much, as always, you guys are great.
Carrie
This person said they were in a Koi club, so I thought I would ask you guys, they might have had some ration behind it, maybe with the no messing with pH thing, to avoid a crash? If well buffered shouldn't it be pretty protected?

All parasites need to live on a host, your Koi, to survive. Therefore if you PP your pond, which has your Koi in it, and you bypass your filter you are doing the right thing.

As far as you pH goes, 6.4 is low and buffering as you do to 7.6 is also a good thing. Norm Meck wrote an article on pH and states in it that if your pH is anywhere between 7 - 9 leave it alone as your Koi will adapt. Your pH is 6.4 and your KH is very low. You are doing the right thing. IMHO

[kyari]

Thanks Russell,
I thought the same, parasites need a host, and did not want to kill my two beneficial colonies. Unless there was some other reason I did not know they said to not mess with the tap pH, I knew 6.4 was way low and it needed to be buffered as well against a crash.
Thanks again, for all of your knowledge and expertise!
Carrie

[lypope]

It depends completely in how mature your filter and the bio-bugs therein are, and what strength the PP is. If you use PP at 1.5-2.0 ppm you can run it through a mature biofilter safely. If you're using PP at 4ppm, always bypass the filter. It might not kill the biobugs, but it will set your filter back somewhat.

[bekko]

The pH of 6.4 is not the problem. The problem is that it indicates you have no buffering capacity and that the pH will decline as the acids produced by decay and nitrification accumulate in the system. Since its a logarithmic scale, the lower the pH becomes, the faster it will drop. A pH "crash", as they say.

Sometime when there's a moment, you should spot check your tap water pH after it has been aerated (in a separate container and before exposure to the oyster shell). Some water supplies have excess carbon dioxide (a weak acid). After aeration, carbon dioxide will come into equilibrium with the atmosphere and you could find that the aerated pH is above pH 7.

Having oyster shell in the system is a good thing. But, it dissolves slowly and there is an outside chance that you are less reliant on the oyster shell than you think.

-steve

[JasPR]

Absolutely, I have water just like that and I was visiting a guy several towns away from me and he also has the same well water type. In fact, my well water is actually 6.2 out of the ground and within minutes of having contact with the air ( carbon dioxide is easily beated off into the atmosphere) the pH is a 7.2.
If this is not the case with this poster, you have to wonder- parasites, and drifting pH, what is the stocking level and maintenance program, including quarantine procedures?

As for PP in filters, in theory there can be some stray parasites or more likely ,stage of a parasite in a filter , depending on species as someone already mentioned. But parasites we are concerned about are mostly contact species needing a host all the time or at least within a certain period of time. If you do a proper dose for KILLING parasites, this will be a 8 hour active charge. In that time you will turn off circulation. THIS is NOT good for biobacteria as they are deprived of oxygen AND food and go under a stress condition. Any parasites or stages are also trapped as the time ticks away. The odds of them getting back to a fish, in a weakened state is very poor indeed. If there were any there to begin with, which again is unlikely.
Bacteria in your filters is within a gel-like structure called a matrix. It is not the individual cells you see when you actually see that brown biofilm. You are seeing the biofilms structure. This material is a semi permeable barrier that protects the cells from outside things such as antibiotics and pollutants like PP. But it is not a wall ! So you will have a die back as the PP oxidizes the surface and some young cells at the top of the matrix zone are killed. It will recover over a few days with no noticeable damage in most cases. I say most cases because if you have a weak biofilm, a new biofilm, a small biofilm, a biofilm already damaged by chemicals already added, a clean biofilm ( verses one that has some organic fouling) etc. you could see consequences in the way of rising nitrite or ammonia. If this becomes the case, simply stop feeding and do 20% water changes twice a week until the film comes back on line.
So either way, PP through a filter or a filter shut off for 8 hours, you are going to have POTENTIAL issues. But no guaranteed problem, just potential problem.
To be forewarned is to be forearmed. One thing to do if you bypass is to add aeration to the biochamber to keep water in the chambers or vortex well oxygenated and moving. Another is to flush your chambers BEFORE you close off the main circulation so that organics in the filter are not contributing to stress on the oxygen levels. Conversely, if you are going to run PP through, DO NOT clean the filters before hand as the organics give protection from the PP charge. Instead do the flush of chambers immediately after the 8 hour treatment ends to remove damaged film and oxidized organic mulm. JR

[jnorth]

Originally Posted by kyari

,
Thanks for all of the help and info. I went to Koi shack and I use them to, for the beginner stuff.

Hi Carrie. I just thought I would point this out to you and remind everyone else . There are lots of ways to do things wrong and a lot less ways to do things right in this hobby. Many people have many different opinions on how to do things. This is not a koi board specific thing. If you ask a simple question on Bito, Koishack, Koiphe n, Koivet, NI or any of the other koi boards you are likely to get several different answers. In fact you may get different answers from the same person as MANY people post to multiple boards. Many of the answers will be wrong while many of them will be right. The ones that are right might be right for all the wrong reasons and vice versa. As JR said with your PP question you can either bypass the filter or not bypass it. He then went on to describe what happens in either scenario and the correct way to do it. So I guess my point is that when surfing all the different boards you should be looking for whats right for your pond and your koi and not just what is right or wrong in general.

[MikeM]

In regard to the pH, I generally agree with the advice you were given not to alter the pH. It is a rare hobbyist with the skill, patience and time necessary to deal with a pond that has a different pH than the source water. All sorts of issues get involved. In your instance, as Bekko says, the issue is not the pH per se, but the reasons behind it. The low alkalinity is an issue for the efficient operation of the bio-filter. Also, pH affects the nitrifiers. At a pH of 6.4, the nitrifier community is not going to thrive.... but much of the ammonia will be in the harmless ammonium form. Adding the oyster shell to buffer is good, but I would be surprised that it causes the pH to rise to 7.6 unless you are using a whole lot of it. I suspect JR's thoughts are on target... your pH is rising considerably very quickly after exposure to the atmosphere due to CO2 escaping.

If the pH is higher due to chemical additives/oyster shell, this can create a number of issues for pond maintenance. When adjusted pH in the pond is much different from the source water, you need to be attentive when doing water changes. The larger the water change, the more important that the pH be similar. A difference of as little as 0.2 may cause irritation and much flashing by the koi. A difference of 0.5 seems to almost always result in flashing. Do not confuse this with parasites. Since large water changes are usually performed over a period of hours, the koi adjust acceptably, but I believe it is the better practice to minimize the irritation of pH shifts of this sort. If the low source water pH rises within minutes due to CO2 release as JR mentions, it is nothing to be concerned about when doing water changes. CO2 escapes so quickly it will not cause a problem.

[CarolinaGirl]

Originally Posted by kyari

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all of the help and info. I went to Koi shack and I use them to, for the beginner stuff.

Carrie, many of the people who answer you at Koishack are also answering you here. Koishack is like all other boards in that you will get different answers depending on who you ask, or what information you provide. You were asked questions on each of the multiple threads you started on Koishack that you did not provide answers to. You asked long complicated questions and also made some very confusing statements that you were asked to clarify. Most of the questions we had for you went unanswered. How can we help if you don't follow-up on your original threads?

One question I had I'll re-ask here. You stated you found multiple parasites on a dead fish. I asked how sure you were of your parasite identification because parasites do not stay on dead fish. Normally when a fish dies, parasites leave. It is nearly impossible to find parasites on a dead fish. I asked the question not to try to second-guess you, but because I am afraid you may be bombarding the fish with chemicals to treat parasitea that may not exist. Heavy slime coats are not always the result of parasites, but also can occur anytime a koi's skin is irritated such as from chemicals.

[kyari]

Sorry if my follow ups have not been great I get on the net mostly at night I have 3 small children. They keep me busy. I should have said that I found parasites on the fish that dies before they died. They were stressed and laying over, so I did the scrapes, all skin scrapes and gill scrapes and that is when I found the bugs. It was only a bit after that they died, couple hours. They were alive when I scoped them, just knocking on death's door, they were also very lethargic and covered with a mucus. I know you won't find any parasites on the dead they just jump to another fish. I have read sometimes you can only find intestinal parasites, on the dead, with necropsy. I will go back and re-check my Koi Shack threads I updated some yesterday and last night. My children are ages 3,5, and 8 and all boys, busy little bees. I try and follow up as best, sorry for any delays and I appreciate all the help and advice. I will check my pH after the CO2 leaves, I have only checked it right in, next water exchange I will let it aerate some as JR said and check it. It was just a 6.4 coming right out of the tap, I will re-check after aeration. That's interesting, I did not know that when CO2 leaves the pH can rise naturally. Thanks.
Carrie