Hoshikin Jumbo Kohaku Tosai

[JasPR]

I'd cool it on the ' special super resistant strains of bacteria' idea. Super bugs are often a convenient answer to some other rather common issue or problem. As I said, when you see jumbo tosai and nisai , think 'weakness' from over heating or under developed immune systems in crowded systems that are heated and medicated. This needs to be dome due to low oxygen levels and high feeding. This is why the wealthier breeder uses pure oxygen.

If the fish is not jumbo and the group is not responding, do consider that the fish is over treated by too many hands. An exporter or breeder buys fish sometimes from others. The 'others' may have treated with an anti-parasitic and then the buyer treats with an anti-parasitic before shipping and then the receiving agent does their procedure, as usual. Only in this case, the fish just can't take 'more love'. The immune system goes.

I would contend that in 90% of the cases, it is lack of immune system and not super bacteria that is at the heart of the problem. Koi are subject to some nasty strains of bacteria ( Aeromonas S of the virulant form, for instance) and several viruses other than KHV. But 'sexy' is not always the likely answer. In fact, it is usually stress from some natural or un-natural source that is never identified that is the cause. In other words, usually the simple things get the koi and not the exotic. JR

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Although Elbagin normally comes in a yellowish/orange package, I have also gotten it in the silver packaging as pictured. 10 grams per ton of water (264 US gallons). Steve

Absolutely not, I have 5 kilos of Elbagin and it was used in conjunction with the two other medications. I did not mention it but the two medications I was sent are mixed into the food.

These are TWO seperate medications that I pictured in the previous post.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I'd cool it on the ' special super resistant strains of bacteria' idea. Super bugs are often a convenient answer to some other rather common issue or problem. As I said, when you see jumbo tosai and nisai , think 'weakness' from over heating or under developed immune systems in crowded systems that are heated and medicated. This needs to be dome due to low oxygen levels and high feeding. This is why the wealthier breeder uses pure oxygen. If the fish is not jumbo and the group is not responding, do consider that the fish is over treated by too many hands. An exporter or breeder buys fish sometimes from others. The 'others' may have treated with an anti-parasitic and then the buyer treats with an anti-parasitic before shipping and then the receiving agent does their procedure, as usual. Only in this case, the fish just can't take 'more love'. The immune system goes. I would contend that in 90% of the cases, it is lack of immune system and not super bacteria that is at the heart of the problem. Koi are subject to some nasty strains of bacteria ( Aeromonas S of the virulant form, for instance) and several viruses other than KHV. But 'sexy' is not always the likely answer. In fact, it is usually stress from some natural or un-natural source that is never identified that is the cause. In other words, usually the simple things get the koi and not the exotic. JR

I agree, I do not think it is a "super resistent strain of bacteria either" but these koi came directly from Hoshikin to us. There were no "others" that touched them and they were not pre-treated with anything. In this case it is none of the above as far as others are concerned. We do not use an exporter, shipping agent or recieving agent that touch the Koi. Hoshikin boxed the Koi, Torazo arranges the transportation and shipping, they are delivered from each breeder to Torazo, put on a truck to the airport and we pick them up here. None of our Koi from the different breeders ever mix until after our quarantine process is over.
I can't really go into detail but we, and Hoshikin, are aware of what happened.

[schildkoi]

Whatever you say.

Originally Posted by schildkoi
Although Elbagin normally comes in a yellowish/orange package, I have also gotten it in the silver packaging as pictured. 10 grams per ton of water (264 US gallons).

Steve

Absolutely not, I have 5 kilos of Elbagin and it was used in conjunction with the two other medications. I did not mention it but the two medications I was sent are mixed into the food.
__________________


"Yellow powder" and you state you don't know what it is. Someone who has had and used the "yellow powder" in IDENTICAL packaging tells you what it is (perhaps it is simply a different name for same product but you don't even know that) and you controvert it. Yeah, right. Enough said.... almost. Then you say there were 2 additional medications "mixed into the food." So, if your original elbagin didn't work, and then the additional silver packaged elbagin probably didn't either and it was possibly the other 2 "mystery" meds "mixed into the food" that did the trick? Obviously, you really don't know, now do you?

Russel, if you are going to tell someone that they are wrong, please provide factual data to support such....afterall, people are simply just trying to help.

Steve

Steve

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Whatever you say. Originally Posted by schildkoi Although Elbagin normally comes in a yellowish/orange package, I have also gotten it in the silver packaging as pictured. 10 grams per ton of water (264 US gallons). Steve Absolutely not, I have 5 kilos of Elbagin and it was used in conjunction with the two other medications. I did not mention it but the two medications I was sent are mixed into the food. __________________ "Yellow powder" and you state you don't know what it is. Someone who has had and used the "yellow powder" in IDENTICAL packaging tells you what it is (perhaps it is simply a different name for same product but you don't even know that) and you controvert it. Yeah, right. Enough said.... almost. Then you say there were 2 additional medications "mixed into the food." So, if your original elbagin didn't work, and then the additional silver packaged elbagin probably didn't either and it was possibly the other 2 "mystery" meds "mixed into the food" that did the trick? Obviously, you really don't know, now do you? Russel, if you are going to tell someone that they are wrong, please provide factual data to support such....afterall, people are simply just trying to help. Steve Steve

I have used elbagin with salt at .5% up to .8% and it worked great, we also increased the air. Also have had elbagin come in orange and silver packaging

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Whatever you say. Originally Posted by schildkoi Although Elbagin normally comes in a yellowish/orange package, I have also gotten it in the silver packaging as pictured. 10 grams per ton of water (264 US gallons). Steve Absolutely not, I have 5 kilos of Elbagin and it was used in conjunction with the two other medications. I did not mention it but the two medications I was sent are mixed into the food. __________________ "Yellow powder" and you state you don't know what it is. Someone who has had and used the "yellow powder" in IDENTICAL packaging tells you what it is (perhaps it is simply a different name for same product but you don't even know that) and you controvert it. Yeah, right. Enough said.... almost. Then you say there were 2 additional medications "mixed into the food." So, if your original elbagin didn't work, and then the additional silver packaged elbagin probably didn't either and it was possibly the other 2 "mystery" meds "mixed into the food" that did the trick? Obviously, you really don't know, now do you? Russel, if you are going to tell someone that they are wrong, please provide factual data to support such....afterall, people are simply just trying to help. Steve Steve

Steve,

Show me in my posts where I ever said it was a yellow powder. Stan is the one that brought it up and then everyone ran with it.

I am telling you that you are wrong and that the two medications I was sent have no english on them so I don't know what they are. They were sent with specific instructions from Hosokai. That is all. My Koi made a tremendous recovery and I am happy with that.

How does your guess that it was Elbagin help me? It does not. I then stated that the meds were mixed with the food. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? IT IS THE FACTUAL TRUTH?

I NEVER EVER STATED THAT IT WAS A YELLOW POWDER AND THAT I DID NOT KNOW WHAT IT WAS. READ THROUGH EVERYTHING AGAIN AND APOLOGIZE FOR BEING RUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been upfront about the whole process and if I got sent some meds that I don't know about, what do you want me to say?

There was no additional packaged silver elbagin. I think you should read everything I said twice, slowly and then you will see that I never, ever said I used a yellowy powder. In fact, both the meds I was sent are tan and brown.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. I have used elbagin with salt at .5% up to .8% and it worked great, we also increased the air. Also have had elbagin come in orange and silver packaging

Hi Nancy,

Please don't get angry at me, but the meds I used in the silver package were not elbagin.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters Hi Nancy, Please don't get angry at me, but the meds I used in the silver package were not elbagin.

Russ,
I am not angry at all, glad your fish recovered

[schildkoi]

So you got some sick fish and treated with "unknown substances" and the fish are fine now. Very informative thread.

Geez

Steve

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi So you got some sick fish and treated with "unknown substances" and the fish are fine now. Very informative thread. Geez Steve

I just don't understand what your problem is. Am I doing something wrong or do you just not like being wrong? I think your response to this whole situation has been agressive, angry and childish.

Yes, I had some very expensive Kohaku that got sick with something I had never seen before and Hosokai came through with medication and protocal that saved the ones that were saveable. I think for some it is informative and educational. I am sorry that I don't know what the meds are but when you are in the midst of losing over $25,000 in Koi, you don't always think about asking.

The main reason I posted the information was to inform everyone what was going on. I has posted a lot of information on the Kohaku when I first got them and then I was silent for seven weeks. People start to wonder so I thought I should post. I have always been upfront about the things that happen to our Koi.