How wud you grow your koi

[hwong]

JR,
I am one of those who wud not shy away from admiting that we face great challenges trying to raise our kois to show quality and condition to do battle with newly minted kois from Japan at shows.

Ok we do have 4 seasons Hot, wet(Cooler), hot, wet(cooler).
I am on the west coast of Peninsular Malaysia. The wettest period are in late April-May and August- Sept. But the last few years has been upside down. We dont have a predicatble weather pattern. Can you advice the type of feed and the feeding strategies for routine growth and also to prime our koi that is usually held in late march or mid april

• Hot-
• Wet(cooler)

Eagerly awaiting your reply...

PS.. I hope to be able to use the discussion here in our next koishow Magazine if you guys are ok. Probably an article based on excerpts and quotes..

[JasPR]

Hwong, Please understand that all I can do is give you an idea or two that I would try if I was your neighbor. I'd make note of the coolest time of the year. I assume that it is because of rain and therefore less sun? If that is turn, we know that koi react to light ( that the pituitary senses). A 'short light period' enhancing one growth related growth hormone and long photo periods resulting in the another growth hormone ( GTH II). We also know that koi can process and absorb more at some water temperatures than others. Ironically in your very warm high summer water they can't absorb as efficiently as when the water is slightly cooler! This is because carp are most efficient at digestion/absorption and assimilation in water between 70- 76 F ( 22 - 24 c). And finally, we know that carp naturally get more protein and more calories in seasonal spring and summer than in winter and fall and that the mix AND amount of protein/fat/carb being different and that also induces different hormonal levels.
So I would try finding the least sunny and coolest season ( relatively speaking of course) and focus on that time to counter act the 9- 10 month 'summer' you naturally provide. If is the rainy season, I would also try and keep rain out of the pond as change in water temperature and pH is likely to bring on a spawning signal? So this gets tricky.
At any rate, you may find that you can't stop feeding completely due to temperature but you can change the mix away from high protein and high fat and maybe reduce the total calorie intake by 50% or so. If you do get a cool spell you could feed every other day or every third day for six weeks or so.

Please let me know if you or any of your country men have noticed a difference in body line/shape/ovaries between fish brought into the country as tosai and raised to full adults and fish brought in after sexual maturity and then raised to older adults. I think that observation, although anecdotal would be very interesting. Best, JR

[MikeM]

I have posted before my effort to imitate a "winter" for my koi through reduced feeding from late October through February and a 5-6 week fast in the late December thru January time frame... my least warm period, when water temps edge down to 60F. I cannot yet say whether it is effective in counteracting the lack of a true 4 season climate.

However, I can report that I've failed with a Showa this year. She did not noticeably lose any weight during the reduced feed/fast period, unlike my others. Whether that was due to her constant consumption of algae or hogging what food that was fed, I cannot say. Her hormonal system seems to have told her body to produce eggs. She has been adding egg bulk for months. She is now bloated with egginess, unlike prior years. She is in her 5th season. (The koi did not spawn this year.) I will be looking for a new home with someone who can induce her to spawn, but with our current high water temperatures I think it will be a challenge. My other gals, both younger and older (and this Showa in prior years) did have some weight loss and re-absorbed eggs acceptably. It is my belief, although it cannot be "proved", that the Showa in question would not have laid on such egg bulk if she had experienced a true 3-month winter. One can never be sure when dealing with the idiosyncracies of an individual koi.

[JasPR]

Mike , check this out and see if you can make sense of it—
We know for sure that carp originated in temperate water with a seasonal temperature fluctuation. We know that this creates a winter stasis followed by a breeding season, followed by an explosive growth season.
We know that IN a Temperate zone region like Japan, koi are heated and allowed an extended summer in artificial conditions and they 1) grow very fast and 2) become sexually mature at as young as two years of age. As reported by Momotaro among others.

We also know that gravid females almost seem ‘physiologically confused’ about their egg mass production in subtropical and tropical settings. This is a happy confusion for breeders of food fish and females can be ‘double clutched’ by chickens to produce two spawns a year. This results in burn out however.
‘
We have seen an alarming number of young ( younger than previous years ALL Japan Winners) moved from heated endless summer situations to the all Japan only to return home to die.

I’m going to go out on a limb here , based on anecdotal feed back from Japan and the USA and say that warm water 365 dates a year produces larger fish that burn bright but burn out early in normal life span.
Is it possible that a fish needs to be bred in a hot house settings for a few generations before it builds a tolerance as a line for those conditions and then flourishes? In effect , you weaken the fish in it’s ability to withstand cold but you refine a fish that can cycle hormonally in a near endless summer? - JR

[MikeM]

I think there is merit in that idea, JR. At some point we may see a dedicated warm climate breeder accomplish a refined Beni that does best in warmth. When we speak of koi today, we are focused on Japan. There are climatic differences between Hiroshima and Niigata; but it seems to me that the greenhouses of Niigata moderate the difference, and the gene pools get mixed a lot. The "advanced" non-Japanese breeders seem to be mostly in 4-season climates, and I cannot think of any in tropical climates at the moment, but I'm not familiar with the efforts of the Southeast Asian breeders. I have the sense that they rely on Japanese oyagoi, rather than engaging in the multi-generations that would be required to create warm climate oyagoi.

I'd be interested in any tropical climate breeders engaging in heavy, selective culling and trying to create their own oyagoi. Maybe a secret breeder in Queensland?

[ppp]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR warm water 365 days a year produces larger fish that burn bright but burn out early in normal life span.

Just wondering what the actual cause of this would be. Many hobbyists here try to grow their koi as fast as they possibly can grow. Overfeeding is a tendency. Obsession with size exists all around the world but perhaps more so amongst the ethnic Chinese who believe that a big koi represents a big wallet, ie wealth.

I'm not sure if it is a PROVEN fact, but many people believe that koi which grow too fast are burning their candles from the other end too, and will have a shorter life span than one which goes through a more "normal" growth pattern. I also hear that Momotaro koi tend to have shorter life spans (less than 10 years) because of their rapid growth, although there will be exceptions in every case.

Fast growers may die younger because of the inability of the internal organs and the exo skeleton to keep up with the growth rate. The question then is, why do koi grow faster in warmer waters when the absorption rate is supposedly less efficieint than cooler waters of 22-24degrees (KHV temperatures, yikes!)? Does it boil down to the hobbyist's indiscipline of overfeeding 365 days a year? It follows then, if a hobbyist varies his feeding routine throughout the year, despite a year round summer, would this prolong the life of the koi?

[Drew A.]

This four seasons stuff is new to me, I'll admit... I'm intrested!

[Drew A.]

What if you created a R&R (rest and relaxation) time?

Is water temp the only component that dictates a Koi's metabolism?

[JasPR]

Triple P, koi are a lower form of life. Even their sexual maturity and oogenesis ( formation and development of egg and ovum) can be calculated in degree days. With 1000 degree days needed to produce maturity of that egg process in normal conditions. That means 60 days at temps above 68 F. I only mention this to illustrate how in tune lower forms like carp are with their environment.
In a more artificial world like intensive aquaculture or tropical countries, the danger is that accumulation of fats and high calories eventually causes fatty liver disease, ovarian cancers and cysts, strokes or metabolic diseases.

Carp are an easily manipulated and exploited captive. And man is an expert at observing and exploiting these physiological rhythms that exist in all carp.
So carp and koi are induced to breed and triggered to ovulate etc. In fact in your country the food carp producers can get several spawnings a year if they feed well and use hormones to time the spawnings. One great trick is to temperature shock breeding stock. Drop the water to 60 F ( 16 c) and then run it up to 75 F or so ( 24 c) in a 6 to 8 hour period of time using refigerated water. This has to be done in coordination with the light, the later afternoon into evening being the best time. In a 36-48 hours, you will have spawning. This is nothing more than creating compressed seasonal flucuation.
So there is no question that if we wish to exploit or manipulate these physiological realities we can. But the results as far as longevity and long term health are concerned are simply not the focus. Only size, volume and reduction are the concerns. So many of these efforts can be expected to have undesirable result in the area of the 'laws of unintended consequences'. - JR

[ppp]

I hear what you say, JR, and fully agreed. Having said what you said, what would YOU do if you were living in a country like Malaysia? Would you

1. Take advantage of the warm year round weather, feed them well all year round and accept the "unintended consequences" on health and life span? or

2. Vary the feed to adjust to their different needs during different times of the year, as you mentioned to Hwong in Post#12 above? or

3. Install chillers (assuming one could afford it and I know you certainly can) to simulate the four seasons and feed them the way the Japanese do?