For those of you interested...

[Ruth Rice]

So sorry Jim,
I just read and saw your pictures on your website. I had to look up my password to log on to reply.....as I haven't logged on in a while....(computer problems).
Some of our friends had a problem with copper quite a few years ago.....these people were very used to taking care of fish and finally found that the slow trickle of warm water (it was winter) caused enough cu to leach into the pond through the piping. They found the fish in the skimmers.....too weak to keep swimming.
Also Ann Telford of the UK had some serious problems with cu and metals poisoning in her koi. She and her husband developed purifiers suitable for removing the toxins. AllClear Water Purifiers
I haven't spoken with her in a few years.....so I don't know how up to date the website is.....I'll do some checking, but the library section has some good reading as I recall.
I think she said that cu had an accumulative effective.....and just as your fish showed with symptoms.....their health keep deteriorating.....so sorry. Hope you find the cause. Ph probably plays a big role in this.

[bekko]

Jim, you should be looking into the use of EDTA (ethylene diamine tetra acetic acid) to chelate the copper and zinc. It is simple to use, safe and cost-effective. The dose depends on the concentration of Cu and Zn. It is available in bulk for large-scale usage in shellfish hatcheries. Let me know if you need the name of a supplier or more info.

-stev eh

[Ruth Rice]

I heard from Ann of All Clear today and also Jen of Quality Koi. Jen said that they are still selling them and they've seen great success with these units
This is what Ann wrote:
Yes, Quality Koi are still selling our products. I think we may be the only UK goods they are still selling.

If you obtain water quality information on your new water and ensure you have its KH (alkalinity) value as well you can now analyse your own water report on our website to find out which purifier you should use and how much water to expect a set of cartridges to treat. If your water falls outside our standard test results you can email us your water information and we will analyse it for you. It is easiest for us to send you the results by fax.

Hope that helps!
Link: AllClear Water Purifiers

I hope it is ok to post this info in the main section of the forum. Since this problem is specific, with not many solutions available, I went ahead and posted here.

[Flounder]

Jim thanks for posting the info on your site. It's a great learning lesson for me. How long do you think your koi has been in this water w/ high Cu & Zn?

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko Jim, you should be looking into the use of EDTA (ethylene diamine tetra acetic acid) to chelate the copper and zinc. It is simple to use, safe and cost-effective. The dose depends on the concentration of Cu and Zn. It is available in bulk for large-scale usage in shellfish hatcheries. Let me know if you need the name of a supplier or more info. -stev eh

That is a great idea. EDTA Chelation therapy has worked wonderfully for years in heavy metals removal, but I'd never thought of it for fish.

[carolyn swanson]

for being stupid, but are these the metals that koi clay is supposed to take out of the water? I remember that this one of the advertising claims, but they didn't say which ones were affected.

[jnorth]

Ruth and Bekko, Thanks for that information I will definately look into both of those products. I'm taking my time to find a long term fix as I bought enough Novaqua to get me through the season.

Flounder, I suspect the water has had elevated for years and it has been steadily getting worse. Now it just reached a point where the koi could no longer handle it.

Carolyn, I have no idea if koi clay can remove metals.

[cppond]

I believe that koi clay is supposed to remove metals in the way a flocculant is supposed to "remove" small particles. I do not know that you could apply it in a way that could ensure the reliable and uniform removal of metals to the extent that it does remove them.

NASA has determined, thru experimentation in waste water treatment, that water hyacinths will remove them, as well. However, I think Jim's situation requires a reliable, measurable way of removing the metals before the metals get into the pond.

[evabug1]

I'm truly sorry to hear about your loss jnorth. That's heartbreaking. It was very kind of you to post your experience so that the rest of us can learn from it. Your website was very informative.