Level of difficulty regarding different koi varieties.

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by RayJordan I agree with Dick. Lots of stuff has to come together to make a great Kujaku. I have seen a lot that have poor conformation. I think this is a holdover from their genealogy. The first kujaku were doitsu and many still have the taller and shorter german food carp shape. Remember that after body shape the metallic sheen is most important. No metallic no kujaku. Seems to me that the orangy colors tend to have the better metallic but the really red ones are a sight to see when they have storng metallic shine as well. Add in the tendancy for a dirty head and messy uneven matsuba scalation and it is really rare when it all comes together just right. Seen a few fantastic ones at the All Japan Shows. Here are a couple of pics of kujaku you might enjoy.

Nice pics...thats what I'm talkin bout!!! Your story definitely makes your point Dick...Finished is finished and better is better. The challenge isn't everything...the finished product is what counts. In a dead heat...I still feel the more difficult koi should get the nod. If a kohaku and sanke are equal in every way..Shouldn't the sanke get the win, since it is the more difficult fish to get right?

[JasPR]

This is frustrating to read. Try this---

If the competition is a marathon then the time of a mile runner is not too impressive.
Gosanke have features and characteristics that other varieties do not have. size, dimension, body line, bone structure, skin complexity, color complexity, three dimensional skin depth and pattern accomplishment of the first order.
Among competing gosanke, kohaku is compared to an idea standard and sanke is compared to an ideal standard. It is true that finish on a three colored fish is more difficult than on a two colored fish ( showa vs kohaku as a classic example, not so much sanke as sumi is easily finished on sanke) but finish is not the yard stick for measuring the best fish.
So kohaku still holds the edge as far as greatest overall accomplishments ( many fish come close or equal to the ideal). Yet a great sanke is so rare ( not many can make the ideal level) that it can easily trump the slightly more common excellent kohaku. - JR

[Super Kindai]

I understand very well


An ideal Kujaku is maybe hardest one to breed among Hikari moyo variety.

[JasPR]

exactly, since Hikari moyo is subdivided into:

1) hariwake type ( a cross of mono one color metallic fish)

and
2) Moyo type ( a cross breeding of mono one color and and other variety)**

** the exception are koi of Utsuri types


The kujaku emerges are 'king' in that group as it is more complicated then simple hariwake types and most moyo types.

In truth, todays kujaku are less ogon ( they used to be called Kujaku ogons) and more kohaku like. The old formula really resulted in a moyo made with mono ( platinum or Matsuba X goshiki) . But today the modern and classy kujaku is a Matsuba X kohaku. Once the traits of kohaku enter the ogon mix we get a more refined Hikari Moyo and the king of that class.

JR

[minesh1]

Just curious, does anyone have photos or a link showing a fish's progress over the years? I think that would be very helpful for newbies (like myself) when trying to evaluate small fish if we had a yardstick to visualize what the fish may develop into. Dealers help a little, but I feel they have an inherent conflict of interest, because they want to sell a fish now, and the potential to exaggerate potential is strong.

I've seen some photos at koi.com, but would love to see member's photos as well.

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR This is frustrating to read. Try this--- If the competition is a marathon then the time of a mile runner is not too impressive. Gosanke have features and characteristics that other varieties do not have. size, dimension, body line, bone structure, skin complexity, color complexity, three dimensional skin depth and pattern accomplishment of the first order. Among competing gosanke, kohaku is compared to an idea standard and sanke is compared to an ideal standard. It is true that finish on a three colored fish is more difficult than on a two colored fish ( showa vs kohaku as a classic example, not so much sanke as sumi is easily finished on sanke) but finish is not the yard stick for measuring the best fish. So kohaku still holds the edge as far as greatest overall accomplishments ( many fish come close or equal to the ideal). Yet a great sanke is so rare ( not many can make the ideal level) that it can easily trump the slightly more common excellent kohaku. - JR

Stick with us JR...I ain't right in the head today. But, I understand fully. Thanks again for the explanation.

[JasPR]

No problem brother, JR

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by minesh1 Just curious, does anyone have photos or a link showing a fish's progress over the years? I think that would be very helpful for newbies (like myself) when trying to evaluate small fish if we had a yardstick to visualize what the fish may develop into. Dealers help a little, but I feel they have an inherent conflict of interest, because they want to sell a fish now, and the potential to exaggerate potential is strong. I've seen some photos at koi.com, but would love to see member's photos as well.

Here are some development pics of two of my smaller koi. The showa is from hosokai. It went from 4 inches to around 9inches. This koi has two kokugyu awards under it's belt. The utsuri is from marusho..also from 4 to 9inches. also won her class at a show. They are both growing rapidly this season. I will update the photo's this fall.

[Brutuscz]

Here is one other. My ginrin sanke. I purchased this one at 4 inches. On the right it is about 14inches.

[evabug1]

Quote: Originally Posted by Super Kindai It is very difficult to breed koi with sanke trails/characteristics. The % of Sanke offspring is very small....

Quote: Originally Posted by Super Kindai Sanke.............. http://bestnishiki.huu.cc/d/00/12.AVI

Ahhh, I see. Thanks for the info and the link SuperK! Very cool.