Quality Vs. Pattern...opinions on this koi?!?!

[MikeM]

I'm not sure it has high quality. Doitsu can be deceiving when so small. The photo, if reliable, hints at Hi having faded on the rear half. The bright glow may be the effect of a purple-based Hi. Of course, photos are tough to read.

[Super Kindai]

Sorry but I will let it go because of the quality and body.

[dick benbow]

Nancy and Mike both made some important points that I wanted to comment on .

when choosing tosai, keep in mind that if they are already at their peak "quality wise" then where else do they have to go (besides down) .......the tosai that make it at the end are truely and ugly duckling story that eventually becomes a beautiful adult ......

because this koi is doutsu, the color so close to the surface of the skin that it appears to be something special. I would be willing to bet this is a male koi that also can finish early.

even if you were able to hang on to what you see right now, as the body of the koi grows the pattern becomes even more "underwhelming".

before I say anything else, I want to commend the poster for being focused
on quality and not overly smitten with pattern. This is an important part of the learning process for folks who intend to show fish with facilities to grow fish to and enter fish over 24 inches. As I pointed out this pattern will not "stay" with the fish as it grows. the trick is to find a big heavy pattern that looks ugly on a little fish that as the fish grows it becomes impressive and powerful. Thanks for posting and pushing forward to learn.

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth Relax it was actually a joke. Shoulda added one of these

No..I knew that. No worries
Sounds like the general opinion is let her go..so, we'll see if someone takes her. The opinions here are aways helpful. It's weird, something about this fish makes me laugh. It's like looking at a cartoon or a clown. Very strange!!!

[JasPR]

In the spirit of education, that is not a high quality fish. Brutus, you have not gotten your orientation on quality right as of yet. It will come but for now you're pretty much a color and pattern guy. That is OK, that is where we all started. The thing you need to do is get around high quality fish and at one point, it will dawn on you. It's an epiphany we all go through.

This is a nicely finished male fish. It has fundamental color intensity and reasonable color/pattern arrangment for fish of that size and body shape. It could easily be a major winner in a local show in the smaller sizes. But it is a fish that will not be able to compete after size 4.
It is a hard thing to grasp the idea that there is really no such thing as a koi that grows through all life stages and is a 'show fish' all it's life. A koi show is actually a series of separate shows focusing on fish that are competitive in that size group and of that age group. So males , who finish quickest dominate the small sizes and then begin loosing to the females at about 18-22 inches as female bodies come on. Then quality starts to dominate over pattern at the next level of age and size as mature quality elements appear. This is where the tategoi finally finishes and is the ultimate 'full package'.
So don't sell your fish short! Just understand what it is and why it is nice now but not so valuable as it ages. The person who buys it must realize that the fish is a 'now' fish and if they want to show it, they/it has a window of a year or two at best.
Hope that helped and didn't hurt? JR

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR In the spirit of education, that is not a high quality fish. Brutus, you have not gotten your orientation on quality right as of yet. It will come but for now you're pretty much a color and pattern guy. That is OK, that is where we all started. The thing you need to do is get around high quality fish and at one point, it will dawn on you. It's an epiphany we all go through. This is a nicely finished male fish. It has fundamental color intensity and reasonable color/pattern arrangment for fish of that size and body shape. It could easily be a major winner in a local show in the smaller sizes. But it is a fish that will not be able to compete after size 4. It is a hard thing to grasp the idea that there is really no such thing as a koi that grows through all life stages and is a 'show fish' all it's life. A koi show is actually a series of separate shows focusing on fish that are competitive in that size group and of that age group. So males , who finish quickest dominate the small sizes and then begin loosing to the females at about 18-22 inches as female bodies come on. Then quality starts to dominate over pattern at the next level of age and size as mature quality elements appear. This is where the tategoi finally finishes and is the ultimate 'full package'. So don't sell your fish short! Just understand what it is and why it is nice now but not so valuable as it ages. The person who buys it must realize that the fish is a 'now' fish and if they want to show it, they/it has a window of a year or two at best. Hope that helped and didn't hurt? JR

No..didn't hurt at all. I get attracted to shiny, sparkly things too easily..lol!
So..my question. Have you ever seen an exception to this? A koi that has won at size one...and seen it win through many different sizes. Just curious if it has ever happened..and what variety of koi has done it?

[JasPR]

Bud, you need to let that idea go!
I do wish I had a dollar for everytime I was asked that question by an intermediate show exhibitor who wants to believe!

As I said, males for the small sizes. They are flashy, finish early as the male hormone comes on and seem to be blessed with attactive pattern in those wonder bread years. Then females with soft killer skin and great shapes and finally, in the heavy weights, the big girls with big girl patterns, that skin and loads of quality- that is the time line.

And to answer your question- I have seen the kind of fish you are drawn to HOLD ON longer than anyone predicted and battled back the bulky females in competition with bold color and perfect pattern right up to side 5. That is about all I can say about exceptions to the rule.

JR

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Bud, you need to let that idea go! I do wish I had a dollar for everytime I was asked that question by an intermediate show exhibitor who wants to believe! As I said, males for the small sizes. They are flashy, finish early as the male hormone comes on and seem to be blessed with attactive pattern in those wonder bread years. Then females with soft killer skin and great shapes and finally, in the heavy weights, the big girls with big girl patterns, that skin and loads of quality- that is the time line. And to answer your question- I have seen the kind of fish you are drawn to HOLD ON longer than anyone predicted and battled back the bulky females in competition with bold color and perfect pattern right up to side 5. That is about all I can say about exceptions to the rule. JR

The idea is gone...like the wind. I was just curious...not wishing. But you know what they say...put a wish in one hand and crap in the other..we'll see which fills up first.

[Brutuscz]

Just for the heck of it. Is this one preferable to the other doitsu sanke I have shown? For the purpose of growing out. This one is smaller at only 6 inches. I believe the Hi pattern is superior..and it certainly hasn't peaked yet. Please let me know what you think? It is from the same breeder...BWCreek.
Thanks again...Brutuscz.

[MikeM]

IMO, yes, this one is preferable.