Need soft water in my mud pond !

[Drew A.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold PS. like the avatar

Thanks, me too!

JR, I don't think I could have said it any better... thanks.

[Drew A.]

Andrew, I would also check your nitrate level as it could be another factor contributing to your poor growth rate.

A question for you... what is your pond water temperature?

[Richard Rombold]

JR, thanks for the lecture. It brought me back to my college days. I think the point you two have missed is that the gentleman asked what he could do to recondition the water in HIS mud ponds to make it closer to ideal. I'll wait for a practical cost effective solution on how to recondition 10 to 15 million gallons of water a month, and then maybe he'll get his answer.

In regards to your tangent, Japan grows the best fish in the world today. Maybe it's the water. I think not, but they do grow some nice fish.

[schildkoi]

I don't disagree with hime often, but......, and although he is technically correct (as ussual), I have to agree with Richard. Reconditioning a mud pond is kinda.....silly?

Steve

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I think the common theme for fry of any of the carp family is that the young live on the margins of their environment. there are a lot of reasons for that. And like most things in nature, there is an elegant synergy to the design. So whether it is the amazing beauty of the swirling structure of a snail shell or a complex study of the bands that make up the cilia of a protozoa, there is a greater function to design. Carp fry , for instance are hatched on weeds or structures located in the shallows where their parents spawned. This is where insect life is concentrated and where water tends to be warmer and of a higher oxygen level and lower pH than the deeper water. The fry is first a larvae when hatched. It has no gills to speak of and no swim bladder. These must develop on the outside of the egg and in perfect conditions for this stage or they will all be lost. After the larvae has exhausted the yolk sac for required nutrition it has developed its swim bladder and can begin to look around for live protein. In fact it just developed a mouth and sight and is attracted to movement, unlike an adult who is attracted by scent. The fry also has a very short gut so it must eat often and insects and animal plankton are perfect for the need. In addition, animal plankton comes complete with a salad! As each of these plankton are stuffed with their food source which is typically photo bacteria and single celled algae. So from the beginning koi are getting protein, fat ( high fat content in those offspring of water plankton) and carbs from the green content in the gut of these creatures. The warm water of shallow margins increases the metabolic rate in otehr wise cool spring water and the fry grow rapidly. And the grassy flowed areas or planted margins provide protection from predator fish. As the frt get larger however they use the school and the deeper water as a refuge as land predators and birds stalk the water margins. And now prey size for the fry needs to be larger- the deeper water and the ‘mud’ calls. - JR

JR, ponds are so dynamic that you will never find two alike, so to generalize is a mistake to begin with. Despite that, in a typical fry pond which has been fertilized and freshly filled you will find the koi along the banks searching for food. However, this is not ideal. In a well fertilized pond you will have a tremendous bloom and supersaturation of the water and pH spikes in the afternoon. These conditions are lethal to young fry. In the ideal pond the fry stay down low in the sweet cool water where the pH is low (not high) and there is less chance they will be taken by aquatic insects. Insects congregate along the banks and eat fry, not the other way around. Here they can safely develop. When you observe young koi along the banks this is an indication that the natural food supply is failing and they are in need of supplemental feeding. Also, all this discussion about ideal pH in a mud pond is a bunch of smoke. Most often you need to add lime to a mud pond to help buffer against extreme pH swings in the summer. Haven't you ever seen the Japanese or any fish farmer adding lime to a pond before??? There is only so much buffering that a natural system can provide. The real factors influencing pH in a true fry pond in the summer is fertility, bloom, photo period, and temperature. Take the fish out of the mud and finish them in the tanks and then you will have your bearings again.

As a side note to any one wanting to learn how to breed koi. Just do it. You won't learn a damn thing unless you get your elbows wet and see what works.

[Drew A.]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi I don't disagree with hime often, but......, and although he is technically correct (as ussual), I have to agree with Richard. Reconditioning a mud pond is kinda.....silly? Steve

SILLY!?!

Well if you have a mud pond and you only want some Petco crapagoi to eat the mosquito larvae that are living in the water, then yes... reconditioning a mud pond would be silly!

On the other hand, as you probably know, mud ponds used for raising nishikigoi in Japan are always being looked after and maintained to make sure that conditions are constantly optimal.

Approximately every five years mud ponds are re-lined with clay. Fry ponds have the mud bottoms stirred to release poisonous gasses that build up in the soil (larger koi will perform this task on their own when the are rummaging for food). And possibly the biggest factor of all is that mud ponds are filled with stream or well water that is naturally very soft because of the fact that it has been flowing largely over insoluble rock. And I almost forgot to mention the fact that Japan has a problem with acid rain, so every time it rains you see breeders running out to their ponds to chuck in loads of oyster shell to keep the pH stable.

So, I don't think that breeders in Japan would agree that doing whatever they can to maintain optimal conditions in their mud ponds for their nishikigoi would be "silly".

[Drew A.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold As a side note to any one wanting to learn how to breed koi. Just do it. You won't learn a damn thing unless you get your elbows wet and see what works.

So if it feels good, do it huh?

I guess if you like to kill things and go through Hell trying to fix problems then... to all you inexperienced newbies out there, be my guest!

Wouldn't be the way I would advise you to go about it but hey, it's your life.

Making the same mistake over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Why would you want to make a bunch of mistakes when you could ask someone who has already made them how to and how not to do things! Andrew, you're asking questions, trying to do what's best for your koi... keep it up!

[Richard Rombold]

Drew,

Anyone wanting to learn how to spawn koi needs to get a basis from which to learn. To develop their bearing in order to enable them to gleam the truth from the froth that circulates as knowledge. What you are having difficulty with is seeing the scope of the problem and the associated cost. If you read everything there is to read about spawning koi and chart it all out, you are left with a tumbled mess of conflicting advise. Its experience that allows you to untangle the knot. Finding the answers is easier than the questions. For me, just do it works. It won't for everyone. You get scuffed up a lot, but it accelerates the learning curve. As with all things there are trade offs.

[Drew A.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold What you are having difficulty with is seeing the scope of the problem and the associated cost.

Alright, well let's try to deal with the cost portion...

He doesn't have to replace all of his water at once. Replacing half of his water with R/O would cut the hardness by half! If he rented a commercial R/O unit for this initial water change, it would save him a considerable sum rather than purchasing. Andrew could then purchase a smaller consumer unit and do small water changes over time until he achieves a level he likes. He also doesn't have to purchase as much water as you may think! If he attaches the pond to a pump and then the pump to the R/O unit, he could make his pond water R/O water. Then he could attach the R/O unit to his usual water source and make up the difference of what the R/O rejected.

What do you think? A viable option?

[Richard Rombold]

Drew,

I am not familiar with the outputs of R/O units and their cost to operate. However, I can surmise that since we are talking at least in units of acre feet (or roughly 1,000,000 liters) per day that you are looking at a commercial sized plant. This size installation would run in the millions of dollars to construct. Also, the process is quite energy intensive. I think JR had the better solution. Buy property in Nigata.

I still like the avatar though. Your work?

Richard