Need soft water in my mud pond !

[Drew A.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Andrew Hoag Pond size 20 ft x 60 ft x 10 ft deep

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold Drew, I am not familiar with the outputs of R/O units and their cost to operate. However, I can surmise that since we are talking at least in units of acre feet (or roughly 1,000,000 liters) per day that you are looking at a commercial sized plant. This size installation would run in the millions of dollars to construct. Also, the process is quite energy intensive. I think JR had the better solution. Buy property in Nigata. I still like the avatar though. Your work? Richard

The size of the pond is 339,880 liters (or 89,786.8 U.S. gallons), not one million!

Millions of dollars??? I'm not talking about building a water treatment plant! I would rent a unit with ~5,000 gpd in output. If you replace half of his water, or 44,893.4 gallons, he could accomplish the task in 9 days!

The unit with an ~5,000 gpd output would be very similar to one a small business or small laboratory would use. It would also not take up more than 3 ft. by 3 ft. of space!

[JasPR]

well if we were back in college I would have to give you a D, Richard! For not listening!

I never addressed the issue of the original poster/question regarding doctoring of mudpond water. I addressed the statement that results can come from any type water , hard or soft. And my postion is that in Japan, where the very best fish are produced, that the soft water is a very real factor. I had a feeling that a sucessful breeder such as yourself would resent being schooled by an amateur, but I felt I had to speak up to the reality of the situation. Sorry. Won't happen again. ( well actually, it probably will! )

On the subject of the resented lecture regarding carp fry. It was about wild carp fry and how they evolved and why they live where they do in the wild. The subject was water depth and why shallow is preferred/required compared to deep adult environments. I wanted to provide persective. It seems you slept thru class and missed the point entirely. It was not meant to be a literal presentation of koi. But an explanation of the hows and whys of carp larvae and fry physiology and niche behavior.
JR

[Eugeneg]

[quote=Drew A.;85721]The size of the pond is 339,880 liters (or 89,786.8 U.S. gallons), not one million!
The problem with this pond is that liveble space for fry is about the first 3ft from shore so there might only be 10000 gal of usable water for natural food . I have about 10 times that usable water and can raise about a 1000 fry a year and some of these are quite small yet the parents are well over 24in . No mention of number of fry . We do not know how much natural water replacment there is . So the size of the pond might be too small to sustain itself . No mention of arriation . No mention of draining the pond or how it is prepared and seeded .how old it is or last time it was cleaned . Size of fry given but size of parent fish not given . Method of seeding and feeding of fry not mentioned . So I can not understand why PH which is acceptable is in question certainly the ph has nothing to do with size of fry in this case
Regards
Eugene

[MikeM]

Yea, it's small for a mud pond, which may explain the growth issues depending on the population load... both fry and living foods.

But, on the topic of altering the water chemistry, I see a fundamental problem. The pH and hardness of the source water is only a part of the equation. Water in a mud pond or natural pond is in constant interaction with the soils and the anaerobic decomposition processes occurring just below the surface sediments. It is much more complex than altering water parameters in a concrete or liner pond, which gets to be pretty complex in itself.

There is a great deal of maintenance that goes into the care of mud ponds, such as application of lime which Richard mentions. Much of this work is focused on the soils when the pond is emptied. Undoubtedly there are effects on water parameters, but it will vary according to the nature of the pond.

I understand that ponds in Niigata are often filled with snow-melt water. Ponds in some other areas of Japan are sourced with groundwater springs/wells of varying mineral content... which may vary also according to the depth of the well. These are different from one another, and are all different from a pond dug where the water is supplied by the surficial water table. Ponds dug below the water table will vary considerably depending on the soils and geology of an area, and even where these are the same, there will be variation depending on the nature of the hydrology of the specific locale. In some spots the water table is relatively stagnant. In other spots there is a continuous directional flow. I am aware of some lakes in Florida that get the equivalent of a 100% water change every couple of months due to this natural movement of groundwater. There is a high level of stability of parameters in some circumstances, and in others there can relatively high rates of fluctuation. In artificially constructed ponds, there will be different parameters over time based on these factors, the emptying of the pond, sun-drying the bottoms, liming, re-lining with clay (where that is done), etc.

Altering the chemistry of mud pond water is really fighting Mother Nature. I think the Japanese idea of raising different varieties in different ponds with water better suited to the variety is the practical approach. But then, the Japanese tend to be practical and accepting of the circumstances they are given... an adaptive framework, while we Westerners tend to set a goal and try to change the world to align with it ... an innovative framework. Both can work, of course.

[Drew A.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Eugeneg So I can not understand why PH which is acceptable is in question certainly the ph has nothing to do with size of fry in this case Regards Eugene

Eugene,
Andrew wasn't asking as much about pH as he was about the KH and GH values of his water! He had read "an article" talking about optimal KH and GH levels in a pond. He then looked up the KH and GH values in his own water and found out that they were way higher than what the article specified as ideal. Andrew then asked whether or not he should lower the KH and GH values of his pond water and if so, how he should go about doing it.

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by Drew A. Eugene, Andrew wasn't asking as much about pH as he was about the KH and GH values of his water! He had read "an article" talking about optimal KH and GH levels in a pond. He then looked up the KH and GH values in his own water and found out that they were way higher than what the article specified as ideal. Andrew then asked whether or not he should lower the KH and GH values of his pond water and if so, how he should go about doing it.

Drew
I checked my KH only a few times in my mud pond and found it on the high side but thought that was good so would be intrested in hearing more about KH and the pros and cons . I usually drain as much of my mud pond every year to a few inches then add chlorine to kill all insects then add a bag of lime as I am getting a sedimment build up . The pond refills partly by spring water and partly by rain and snow over the winter . During the summer It barley keeps up with the evaporation . I keep the pond well ariated but am concerned about seeding it as I have minor cuts get infected on 2 of my large fish this year . Luckily I caught them for treatment . This years spawn are mostly Kohaku and it was controlled so looks promising . The more I learn the more I understand the variaty of problems that can happen . One to be sucessfull would have to devout a lot more time to it than most are prepared to give . Instead of careing for my fish I was fishing at my cottage most of the summer did get a nice 39 in male lake trout and now off to Alaska for a month while the King fishers are picking out the best of my fry . They are lousy cullers hopefully I will end up with real highly intelligent fish .
Regards
Eugene

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR well if we were back in college I would have to give you a D, Richard! For not listening! I never addressed the issue of the original poster/question regarding doctoring of mudpond water. I addressed the statement that results can come from any type water , hard or soft. And my postion is that in Japan, where the very best fish are produced, that the soft water is a very real factor. I had a feeling that a sucessful breeder such as yourself would resent being schooled by an amateur, but I felt I had to speak up to the reality of the situation. Sorry. Won't happen again. ( well actually, it probably will! ) On the subject of the resented lecture regarding carp fry. It was about wild carp fry and how they evolved and why they live where they do in the wild. The subject was water depth and why shallow is preferred/required compared to deep adult environments. I wanted to provide persective. It seems you slept thru class and missed the point entirely. It was not meant to be a literal presentation of koi. But an explanation of the hows and whys of carp larvae and fry physiology and niche behavior. JR

Thanks JR, no resentment. Be serious. The thing I like best about you is that you are passionate. That said professor, I never made a claim as to what the best water conditions are for raising koi. What I said is that you need to work with what nature has given. You can overcome many shortcomings thru good pond management and sound technique. In time this will be shown to be the key to matching the Japanese standard.

I surmised you must have been commenting on a wild spawn or an accidental spawn in some mud pond. The fry could choose between being torn in half in the open water, or seek shelter in the weeds with the insects, frogs, snakes, turtles and of course birds. It's not a very helpful analogy for anyone trying to understand a fry pond. Fry seek the niche that is most beneficial to their survival. Koi aren't raised in a river and would never survive. So why compare wild carp to domesticated koi? Koi fry prefer intermediate depths on the fringes of the photo zone. That is one and a half to five feet in depth in most ponds. They forage on the fringes at night and retreat to the depths during the day. Every pond and hatch is different, but this represents the ideal pond. You should only see koi in a mud pond when they are being fed.

Looking forward to your reply as always professor.


Drew,

You got me pinned in the corner on this one. I do now think that Andrew should spend whatever it takes to soften his water. I mean what are the alternatives? By the way, how large is your pond? I am sure you run your water at home through a reverse osmosis unit. Right? How much does it cost you a month?

Mike hit it on the nose. Don't try to bend nature. Learn to sway with her. Mud ponds are a ballet and far more complex than the sterile environments we maintain for our pleasure.

Richard

[dick benbow]

when it comes to raising fry two very important factors contribute to sucess. Live food the first 6 weeks and not over crowding. These two rules i see broken with folks trying to learn how to be sucessful . The live food thing definetely affects the growth and the crowding affects the pointy heads.

Rather than try to adjust mid stream it is best to be prepared ahead of time.
Timeing is extremely important to prepare the ponds ahead of the hatch and to have the "ginko" exploding in numbers with the addition of the fry. In my learning the importance of timing I even went to extremes to augment the live food with brine shrimp which proved to be a lot of work and still ended in failure.

tho it may seem as plain as the nose on your face, Richard's comment about getting in there and learning by doing is pretty sage. It's cause and effect, and the best teacher is still your powers of observation and old ma nature.

In my chats with famous breeders in moments of honesty they acknowledged
a particular year's crop was poor because they did not get the spawn and food supply in sink. Sometimes it was their fault sometimes it was weather or something else out of their control. But then that's farming

[bekko]

Quote: I have recently started to raise young koi in one of my mud ponds on my farm. I plan on spawning more koi for the enjoyment, but noticed that the fry I have now are growing rather slowly. The fry were born late last summer ( August ) and were about 5 cm this spring. Now they are about 13 cm and I've noticed they seem rather stocky which I have read is another sign they are growing too slow. I read another posting here at Bito Magazine which suggested my water could be too hard. I checked my water and it turned out as follows:

Baby fish are 'fry' for a the first few weeks of life. After that they are 'juveniles' or 'fingerlings'. Sorry - it's a pet peeve.

Andrew, your fish are not growing because they do not get enough to eat. Softening the water will not help the growth rate.

The major issue with your pond is the depth and its effect on dissolved oxygen. Do you have supplemental aeration and mechanical mixing? If not, then the water column will be stratified this time of year with warm water at the surface and cooler, denser water at the bottom. When temperature stratification takes over, there is little or no mixing from top to bottom. When there is no mixing from top to bottom the lower layer will become devoid of oxygen. When the bottom becomes devoid of oxygen the fish cannot forage there and there is little production of natural food items.

When was the last time the fish were culled? Ever? Is the pond fed? How much and how often?

If the pond is not fed, then you should only keep the best three or four koi and throw the rest away. If the pond is fed, they you could keep up to fifty fish. Without supplemental aeration your feed rate should never exceed 350 grams per day and 250 grams per day would be safer. Fifty koi at 13 cm would need about 50 grams per day. By the time they reach 30 cm they will need 250 grams per day.

If you can aerate the pond then the feed rate could be higher, you could keep more fish and they would grow faster. Aerating to a depth of ten feet requires a lot of energy. It is cheaper to use shallow aeration and an air-lift pipe to pull water up from the bottom and prevent stratification.

-steve

[dick benbow]

thanks Steve!