Need soft water in my mud pond !

[Andrew Hoag]

I have recently started to raise young koi in one of my mud ponds on my farm. I plan on spawning more koi for the enjoyment, but noticed that the fry I have now are growing rather slowly. The fry were born late last summer ( August ) and were about 5 cm this spring. Now they are about 13 cm and I've noticed they seem rather stocky which I have read is another sign they are growing too slow.

I read another posting here at Bito Magazine which suggested my water could be too hard. I checked my water and it turned out as follows:

PH 7.5
GH 16 dH
KH 11dH
NO2 0.3 mg/l
NH3 NH4 0 mg/l
Pond size 20 ft x 60 ft x 10 ft deep

An article I read suggested the following as the ideal water condions:

PH 6.8 to 7.4
GH 1 to 2 dH
KH 2 to 6 dH

What I am hoping to find is a method of softening the water I use to fill the pond with. I have considered an RO unit but I would need a large amount of water if I decide to use more ponds to raise additional fry. I thought about peat moss, but I've never used it before and I'm not sure how to apply it to the water or how much I would need or how long it will soften the water. As this is a hobby, I would like to keep the costs at least under control.

Any suggestions would be very helpful.

Thank you,
Andrew

[Drew A.]

Peat moss will not soften your water, but it will lower your pH!

R/O is one of three options you have for softening your water, the other two are distilled and deionized.

Distilled is cost ineffective, and deionized only works if you live near a place that recharges the cation and anion tanks.

So, that leaves you with Revese Osmosis... and finding a unit with enough Gallons Per Day to suit your needs.

Try doing a Google search for R/O units for buisnesses and companies that sell them in your area.

[Richard Rombold]

Go with what you have. Learn to adapt to what nature has provided and make the most of it. You can grow koi in most any soil or water condition that will support other aquatic life. The proof is in the fact that koi are grown successfully the world over. What makes the difference between the best farms and worst is in the technique, not the water.

[Drew A.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold Go with what you have. Learn to adapt to what nature has provided and make the most of it. You can grow koi in most any soil or water condition that will support other aquatic life. The proof is in the fact that koi are grown successfully the world over. What makes the difference between the best farms and worst is in the technique, not the water.

While there is truth in the fact that carp are incredibly good at adapting to different environments, conditions that allow a carp to survive are in no way the same as conditions that allow a carp to THRIVE!

Now there is a debate about whether or not hard water or soft water is better. That question in and of itself is a trick question, why you might ask? Well first off, the person asking the question has to define what benefit they're looking to gain. Do you want "better" growth? Soft water is for you. Do you not want to constantly check your KH? Hard water is for you. Do you want a more forgiving water in terms of pH? Hard water is for you (granted if you constantly monitor your KH in soft water, soft water can be just as stable) Do you want a more deep intense red Hi while simultaneously running the risk of the Hi receding? Hard water is for you. Do you want what is BEST for the overall wellbeing of your koi in the long run? Soft water is for you!

If you answered "yes" to the last question then the cost of maintaining soft water isn't as painful. And the thought of hard water in your pond becomes less of a viable option.

As you can probably tell by now, I am pro soft water. If you want to disagree with my position, I have no problems with it. Let the debate begin!

[Eugeneg]

[quote=Andrew Hoag;85639]I have recently started to raise young koi in one of my mud ponds on my farm. I plan on spawning more koi for the enjoyment, but noticed that the fry I have now are growing rather slowly. The fry were born late last summer ( August ) and were about 5 cm this spring. Now they are about 13 cm and I've noticed they seem rather stocky which I have read is another sign they are growing too slow.

Andrew
Large parents produce large fish . August I have found is not a good time for seeding ponds and producing enough food for young fry . Fry find most of their food by the edge of a pond not at 10ft . I think that the PH you have is fine
Regards
Eugene

[Eclipsar]

There could be many other things that could be stopping your fry from growing. Like numbers, water temperature, feed, breeding.

I would also say the mudpond is too deep for fry, as they like shallow and very warm water.

I would say the ph is not the problem, its more likely to be one of the other problems, I also think they where bred to late in the year.

Regards
Chris

[Richard Rombold]

Drew,

With all respect, a single one acre pond holds one to two million gallons. Water conditioning is not an option at this scale. If the fry aren't growing it's either water quality or diet.

PS. like the avatar

[JasPR]

I agree with Drew. Water in a well conditioned mud pond is microbe-conditioned, pure and soft in nature. It is the best water.

Richard, the fact that koi can be grown all over the world is a tribute their hardiness and adaptability. But the Japanese results are spectacular when compared to any where else in the world. There are, of course, a lot of elements/factors that go into those results. But Japanese business types that have created grow out facilities in Taiwan, Thailand, Cambodia ( a few owned shrimp fish boats over there and also grow out koi over there for a few years) and even local Okanawa, all come home eventually.

Maybe koi are too difficult to assess between flourishing and surviving for those who only get to see their local results and don't get to compare them to the average results in Japanese breeding facilities?
Perhaps breeding tropical fish in different water conditions will bring the lesson home better and educate us to the big picture? I have spent the last 40 years breeding tropicals. Focusing heavily on fancy mollies and fancy sword tails. I can tell you all the tricks and water parameters that cause fry to triple in size in a matter of a week or two. I can also tell you how to slow their growth down, produce larger fins in males and how to make large and long robust adults. It isn't hard when you know the tricks. But the tricks alone are not enough. You need the basic water parameters that favor this specific species. We all know that tropicals prefer soft water or hard water, brackish water or freshwater.
I can feed the same foods, at the same temperature, give the same photo period and the same water changes. But pH and hardness will be the underlying factors that give the very best results.
Recently I moved a few F7 gen sailfin/liberty males to a 90 gallon with two new Asian field pond grown females. I needed the males to get the deed done as the Asians ship these big field pond females only when fertility starts to fall off. So I used the water to cause the males to explode in size and maturation. Their brothers are kept in my typical tap water. After two weeks the males in the new adjucted water set up are noticeably larger, blacker ( with more intense yellow borders on the tail and sail fins) and more sexually active than their brothers in the normal tap water.
Both sets of male sailfins are healthy, growing and attractive. But the two flourishing in the 'adjusted water' are really special when compared to their siblings.
The same is true of koi. Unfortunately, I think you need to see the siblings to appreciate the difference.
Best, JR

[Super Kindai]

Mr. Hoag

Your Ph is pretty good range but the pond is tooooo deep for fry fish.
1 ft deep is just enough for them and they need a lots of water flea (Daphnia) in it, especially for a first couple weeks.


Attached picture : They will be 4 weeks old by tomorrow.

[JasPR]

I think the common theme for fry of any of the carp family is that the young live on the margins of their environment. there are a lot of reasons for that. And like most things in nature, there is an elegant synergy to the design. So whether it is the amazing beauty of the swirling structure of a snail shell or a complex study of the bands that make up the cilia of a protozoa, there is a greater function to design. Carp fry , for instance are hatched on weeds or structures located in the shallows where their parents spawned. This is where insect life is concentrated and where water tends to be warmer and of a higher oxygen level and lower pH than the deeper water. The fry is first a larvae when hatched. It has no gills to speak of and no swim bladder. These must develop on the outside of the egg and in perfect conditions for this stage or they will all be lost. After the larvae has exhausted the yolk sac for required nutrition it has developed its swim bladder and can begin to look around for live protein. In fact it just developed a mouth and sight and is attracted to movement, unlike an adult who is attracted by scent. The fry also has a very short gut so it must eat often and insects and animal plankton are perfect for the need. In addition, animal plankton comes complete with a salad! As each of these plankton are stuffed with their food source which is typically photo bacteria and single celled algae. So from the beginning koi are getting protein, fat ( high fat content in those offspring of water plankton) and carbs from the green content in the gut of these creatures. The warm water of shallow margins increases the metabolic rate in otehr wise cool spring water and the fry grow rapidly. And the grassy flowed areas or planted margins provide protection from predator fish. As the frt get larger however they use the school and the deeper water as a refuge as land predators and birds stalk the water margins. And now prey size for the fry needs to be larger- the deeper water and the ‘mud’ calls. - JR