so what's your take on white

[HEADACHE6]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori It is hard to explain what is good, bad and might get better white. By the way who is the breeder of your Shiro?

I thought that was what the thread was about ? LOL !

You would ask , this is the one koi I have that I don't remember the breeder .

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow it's nice to get some input from breeders! Thanks Brady....I'm hopeful JR will have some input as well. The more I'm at this "game" and focused on tosai, the more I realize the importance of really learning a bloodline. As Brady points out they ain't all the same. Many of the bright shiny like the driven snow types have not turned out for me while the 2% milk variety improved year after year. I think it's important to qualify that we're talking about the color of the skin not the sheen or shine ( cotton cloth vs silk ) different subject! well let's hope the topic catches a few more searching eyes.....

Dick,

I think you have already seen one of these photos, but it might help illustrate your point to show them to the board in general. In young koi you don't see finished fish of course, and some of my earlier posts may have been interpreted as saying so. What you see in young tosai is early quality and your eye learns to fill in the gaps.

This is a photo of some of the sanke that I sorted two weeks ago. These are not the best fish, but good representations from what the parents contributed. The parents are my third generation stock, and in their offspring you can begin to see hints of the modern Japanese stocks. Two points here. First, notice the depth that you can see into the outer layers of the fish. Second, in the kohaku on the left (same spawn) you can see the qualities that Dick is referring to when he comments about the "bright shinny" whites. I think Toshio would refer to these fish as having a brittle nature. Even though this kohaku has more depth to it than my orginal parent stock, it can't hold a candle to the modern fish in my opinion.



In this second photo you will see something that you may never ever again see. In this bowl are some representative koi of a Kohaku spawn I sorted last week. What makes this bowl interesting is that it was a spawn that contained two females and a single male. The first female was fourth generation my stock, and the other was a young matsunosuke koi I just acquired courtesy of Russ Peters (as I begin the process of incorporating the matsunosuke bloodline). The male was my number one kohaku. It's fairly apparent in the photo which fish came from which bloodline. In the center left of the photo you will see a group of three kohakus with very finely textured skin, "milky 2%" shiroji and soft even beni. That is, matsunosuke blood. Scattered around this group you will see the contribution from my other girl. Dick mentioned cotton and silk. Well, here you have it in the same spawn. It is as if you had taken kohakus from twenty years ago and dropped them plunk in the middle of their modern day descendants.

[dick benbow]

thank-you Richard for your photos and contribution. I think it definetely helps to see what is being talked about.

[aquitori]

Richard, how many weeks are these tosai and how big?

[LammiKoi]

Great post guys. This is clearly a huge hurdle for people who are new to the hobby to grasp, and I intend on grasping this concept. From what I gathered from this post and my readings, as I have very little personal hands-on experience with this concept, is that when it comes to looking for a future GC from a group of tosai, one should first focus on conformation, second on how the overall pattern will fit the koi as it grows and expands, third look for good shiroji, and so forth.

Clearly anyone can go out and buy a sansai or yonsai and win a GC, but what is more challenging is having the ability to evaluate potential GCs from when they are tosai and giving them the best of care so that they can maximize their show potential. After all, this is part of what makes the hobby so fascinating.

What I have learned from this post is that when it comes to choosing the right "canvas" one should look for the milky white that Dick mentioned rather than the luster snow-white as this color usually doesn't hold up on the koi in the future. Furthermore, one has to look at the parent stock and bloodlines as these can affect how the shiroji develops. I do have several questions:

1. If you see two tosai that are identical in everything (conformation, size, sex, pattern, etc.) except for one has the milky 2% milk color and the other one has a very attractive snow-white color and you are considering one of these as your future show fish 3 to 10 years down the road, which one would you choose?

2. What is the best way to bring out the shiroji before a show? I have heard Aquitori feeding them sweet potatoes. Others mention stop feeding them color-enhancing food a month before the show. I also know of a hobbyist who feeds his koi white-color enhancing pigments a couple of weeks before a show.

3. Would you guys agree that shiroji is the most important of the three dominant colors? After all, the shiro does make the other colors stand out.

4. How much do you guys think genetics play a role in shiroji development compared to beni or sumi? I kept on thinking that white is white and in fact I had a really difficult time deciphering which of the three koi that Richard posted has the best shiro :-).

Your guys' thoughts and inputs are much appreciated. I

[jbolding]

Here my take on your questions.

One of the things that it has been hard for me to really grasp is that every koi does have it's day. What the advanced koi keeper can do is look at a koi of quality and picture at what size and stage the fish will be the most competitive, and then gear the koi's care toward that result. It seems odd, but having a koi win baby champ could be just as gratifying as GC if baby champ was your goal for the fish.

1. I would choose the milky white for a size 5 or above show fish (female dominant sizes) and probably the hard white for size 1 to 3 (male dominant sizes). Size four can be a toss up.

2. Pristine water. (As a size note I would never feed color enhancing food.) i have learned this often means you may need to stop feed feeding weeks before a show.

3.It's all about the Jitai. Yes the white is the most important, but prefect white with hard beni can give a different appearance than perfect with with orange-red beni. The same is true with sumi. This goes back to item one where you need to focus on when the fish should be shown.

4. Genetics are the most important item aside from water quality (or husbandry in general) in show fish. After all you can not bring out what wasn't there to begin with.

[LammiKoi]

Thank you jbolding for your input. It really makes sense what you said. Now I just have to learn how to sex koi while they are just tosai!!!

[aquitori]

1. If you see two tosai that are identical in everything (conformation, size, sex, pattern, etc.) except for one has the milky 2% milk color and the other one has a very attractive snow-white color and you are considering one of these as your future show fish 3 to 10 years down the road, which one would you choose?

I would probably buy both to study. Let's say we dont know sex on either, which some claim to know even at tosai. Milky white in tosai, will get better as the fish matures. Snow-white tends to come down to milky white after time. It's knowing how much the shiroji has peaked and finished to tell you what direction it will go. If I base these 2 fish 3 to 10 years down the road I would say both have equal chance at tosai to maintain a certain level.

2. What is the best way to bring out the shiroji before a show? I have heard Aquitori feeding them sweet potatoes. Others mention stop feeding them color-enhancing food a month before the show. I also know of a hobbyist who feeds his koi white-color enhancing pigments a couple of weeks before a show.

To each is his own on this one. I use thsweet potato diet to maintain the fish during the year. The true test of seeing how the shiroji has done is cold water time of the year. The shiroji is at it's best and I dont mean peak when the cold weather part of the year hits. That's why you dont see many koi shows in Japan during summer. Hobbyist have a tendency to push fish for show when the isnt ready, this in turn is a problem waiting to happen. If you plan on showing look a year in advance to give your fish and yourself enough time to get ready.

3. Would you guys agree that shiroji is the most important of the three dominant colors? After all, the shiro does make the other colors stand out.

Shiroji is the main point of the other 2 colors. There has to be a balance of the look of finish. Yeah shiroji is good on, but the beni is on it's way down. The depth between the colors has to look even, shiroji makes the other 2 standout, BUT it can also show you the faults of the other 2.

4. How much do you guys think genetics play a role in shiroji development compared to beni or sumi? I kept on thinking that white is white and in fact I had a really difficult time deciphering which of the three koi that Richard posted has the best shiro :-).

It's hard to look at pictures to see the depth and quality of shiroji. This is something that you have to teach yourself and look at alot of fish to fully understand what Dick or Richard are talking about...I have to say those 2 guys have seen alot of fish!!!

Your guys' thoughts and inputs are much appreciated. I

[kntry]

What role does water quality/parameters play in the development or lack of development in the shiroji? i.e.: pH, alkalinity, hardness, temp, etc. Full sun, shade???

[dick benbow]

working with white is being able to have the best genetics combined with the best water quality. Water quality that allows the koi to develop naturally and not forced to respond to color food or hardness. A koi needs the right kind of and amount of food. It has to be fed in proportion to the water temperature so that it is fully utilized and not upsetting the koi's digestive system and not over taxing the filtration. feeding is a skill that is learned. I've learned over the years that having more than just a couple of tosai adds to the competitiveness of the group and I experience better growth rates. a continual trickle of declorinated water also seems to add the well being of the overall color and slightly increased prior to show time. many advocate using silkworm as food ( with the proper high temps ) as a food that helps
with the white.