so what's your take on white

[dick benbow]

Over the years, I've seen lots of chatter about red and black. What;s the best, how to tell, at what age etc. Not quite the amount of banter about shiroji. Specifically while selecting tosai. What has triggered me to post this question is the conversation on cullung kohaku, lots of nice talk about pattern, beni, kiwa and bright white to aid in selection. Is bright white the ticket?

[Brady Brandwood]

Hi Dick,

An interesting topic, and a deep one for sure. As you well know, it's good to start with a high quality white. If it looks good young,... its there, and can always be recalled with good care. If it's bad,... it's often hard to make it good. Here's a pic of tosai Kohakus at the 2nd cull from this year. A pearly white is one early sign of quality.

Koi lines develop differently though,... on some lines the quality white shows itself as a soft transluscent white, rather than a pearly white. Then, to keep us all interested and on our toes the way "koi" does, the white of male koi looks different than the white on female koi, even in the early, early stages,... AND on some lines the white ground begins a little muddy and questionable, only to clear and thicken to a milky white in the 3rd and 4th year. This happens more often on female koi than male koi. I'll try and find a photo example of this.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[PapaBear]

I'll be curious to hear more on this too.
We're once again enjoying watching the progress of some "accidents" born in our pond this year. Our first spawn was several years ago and we had no idea what to look for. We kept a shotgun selection to watch grow out so we could learn how they develop.
This time we are trying to polish our eye so we can do a better job of selecting possible keepers for the same purpose. (BTW Brady etal... we NEVER sell our culls to pet stores. I don't like putting even a tiny dent in the marketplace for legitimate breeders) What I'm trying to concentrate on is the fine balance between high quality skin luster, pattern, and of course overall body conformation.
I'll look forward to seeing the different types you've mentioned, as there are a number of different looks I'm seeing that are distinct from each other, but seem to my still untrained eye to indicate good skin, which to me begins with shiroji..

[Dan Blatt]

Dick, interesting subject. Over the years the first thing I learned to look at is the white ground. Guess it's just become second nature as I've evolved. Without the canvas, you really can't paint a picture....if you get my drift.....and I know well that you do.

Maybe I'll see ya at the Young Koi Show at Sue's. Hope to stop in and visit with some folks.

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow Over the years, I've seen lots of chatter about red and black. What;s the best, how to tell, at what age etc. Not quite the amount of banter about shiroji. Specifically while selecting tosai. What has triggered me to post this question is the conversation on cullung kohaku, lots of nice talk about pattern, beni, kiwa and bright white to aid in selection. Is bright white the ticket?

Dick,

Wonderful luster and snowy white is what gives koi their elegance. Beni and sumi is all about drama. For me an important aspect of what I am attempting to achieve is a koi you keep and enjoy for many years. That requires incredible shiroji. So yeah, bright white is an important quality to have in making it past subsequent culls.

Richard

[aquitori]

There was this GC Showa that won at a major show here in the states. The head judge said tank so and so is GC!!! Why? Because the white was the best of all the jumbo fish entered. I have to admit that the white was supreme, but the beni looked on it's way down.

I learned one thing that day, even the best white shows alot of the faults of the beni.

[Super Kindai]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow Over the years, I've seen lots of chatter about red and black. What;s the best, how to tell, at what age etc. Not quite the amount of banter about shiroji. Specifically while selecting tosai. What has triggered me to post this question is the conversation on cullung kohaku, lots of nice talk about pattern, beni, kiwa and bright white to aid in selection. Is bright white the ticket?

Baby Kohaku......

http://bestnishiki.huu.cc/d/00/11.AVI

[dick benbow]

it's nice to get some input from breeders! Thanks Brady....I'm hopeful JR will have some input as well.

The more I'm at this "game" and focused on tosai, the more I realize the importance of really learning a bloodline. As Brady points out they ain't all the same.

Many of the bright shiny like the driven snow types have not turned out for me while the 2% milk variety improved year after year.

I think it's important to qualify that we're talking about the color of the skin not the sheen or shine ( cotton cloth vs silk ) different subject!

well let's hope the topic catches a few more searching eyes.....

[HEADACHE6]

I hope this is worth posting . When looking at the first photo , does the white show any of the signs that you would be looking for normally in a young koi ? If so , What ? This koi has developed some of the best white I have seen . Second photo is after a long Show weekend (stressed) . Photos are about 15 months apart .

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 I hope this is worth posting . When looking at the first photo , does the white show any of the signs that you would be looking for normally in a young koi ? If so , What ? This koi has developed some of the best white I have seen . Second photo is after a long Show weekend (stressed) . Photos are about 15 months apart .

It is hard to explain what is good, bad and might get better white. The key words in your post are "have seen"....I dont think most hobbyist have been over to the other side of the ocean to see what I am talking about. A top condition fish will have a glow about it's white to say hey look at me. By the way who is the breeder of your Shiro?