JR...I'm your numbskull!!!

[UP ALL NIGHT!!]

I am sorry for your Koi, It must be crushing to nurture one with so much promise. I don't know how you "show" people do it, I do admire you all.

Question: How do you get a large koi like the one above out of its pond to treat it?
What is the most gentle way to catch a koi?

What Kinds of Nets? (I Have a 25" circular 6" deep net and a water holding sock net.) What is the proper way to use them?

I gently scoot one into a corner and quickly scoop them up in the sock net. Then they are bucking and jumping making the most awful gasping noise. I have a blue circular tub like you see every where they just jump out of it.

Do you use a Seine net?

How do you remove ANY koi from a 5' deep pond.
Lori

[Brutuscz]

I do have a seine net...but only use it to corral them. Never catch them in the seine...you can damage the fins. I have a 30inch round net for the capture. After she was caught, I gently guided her into a blue bowl. Then, simply lift the bowl, and she's caught. I do have a long sock net..but, didn't use it for her. I find it is easier to capture them at night...my spotlights make it so I can see them...but it's hard for them to see me. Tips the scale in my favor.

[JasPR]

"I have a 30inch round net for the capture. After she was caught, I gently guided her into a blue bowl." - B

That's the way to do it. A net is used to encircle and then guide the fish into a bowl and never to actually come in contact with, or lift the fish. JR

[JasPR]

Sorry koiboi31, I missed your post until now. Although a scale is 'alive' and fed by blood supply, it does not 'die' in the true sense of the world. I would describe it as becoming 'devitalized'. I have saved most scales when the pocket that the scale emerges from is saved.

The way aeromonas works is it enters the epidermis and works its way straight down into the dermis layer. The softer layer is then subject to lateral or horizontal attack. The infection moves in that direction until an entire area is infected. It is only then that you see an ulcer form. This explains how ulcers 'seem to appear' almost over night. They are festering for a while but only a pimple shows at the surface and then a bruise. Then the ulcer is exposed.
This dermis layer is also where the scales are anchored. They each are anchored in a special group of sturdy cells that form a pocket for the scale base. This is different material than dermal cells and more dense.
Obviously the base of scales that was in an ulcerated area are obliterated and there is no way to save that scale as it no longer has an anchor.
But scales on the margin of the ulcer still have a pocket. They may be loose and seem that they can be pulled out with great ease. Some of that 'fell' is due to localized swelling/fluids and some is actually the scale detaching. But in 90% of the cases, that particular scale can be saved if action is taken to specificially treat the scale. And the treatment is quite easy. You just need to address the infection building around the base of the scale. please note that PP or other harsh sterilizing agents should not be used. Instead, clean out both sides of the scale base with a Qtip dipped first in betadine solution, and then another q-tip dipped in a water proof antibiotic paste with steroid.
This should be helped along with injections of antibiotics to attack the problem internally at the point of blood circulation. Meanwhile, you will treat that scale each time you gently clean the ulcer and reapply the ointment. Very important, you will stop using betadine as soon as you are satisfied that there is no more dead tissue coming out of the pockets as evidenced by a clean Qtip after swabbing. From that point on, only use the ointment to pack the base of the scale. And do not be tempted to pull on or 'test' the scale! Especially early-on in treatment. Some scales will be too far gone and will come out during treatment. But most will 'tighten' as infection and swelling leave the area.
Depending on how soon you treated and how well the fish responded, scale lose should be minimal with a very few being lost other than the ones involved IN the ulcer itself.
JR

[koiboi31]

JR,

Great stuff - another one for my word document folders.

Two questions if i may....

a). You talk about using a q-tip - not heard of this in the UK what do you mean?

b). Water proof antibiotic paste containing a steroid - where could you get this from and does it have a shelf life?

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiboi31 JR, Great stuff - another one for my word document folders. Two questions if i may.... a). You talk about using a q-tip - not heard of this in the UK what do you mean? b). Water proof antibiotic paste containing a steroid - where could you get this from and does it have a shelf life?

A q-tip is an applicator stick. It has a cotton head and a stick of wood or plastic. Good for cleaning the ears

[Campcheryl]

Q-tips are called cotton buds in England. The small sticks that have a small amount of cotton on the tips.

[kingkong]

The Q-tip was created by Leo Gerstenzang in 1926. Ne named his invention baby gay Q-tips now known as Q-tips. The 'Q' stands for quality. Lucky us, they could have been named....well.

[MikeM]

KK: I'm never playing a trivia game with you!

[JasPR]

If you can find them over there, there is firmer ,pointer tipped one available over here. It is sturdier and also not as wide and easy to get in and under a scale on a an 18 inch fish.

The ointment is common in the dental practice especially among the 'gum guys'. They use it to treat swollen, infected gums on people. It is a simple orabase paste with a gram negative antibiotic ( these gram negative pathogens seem to love wet places!). I know that some of the British hobbyists in the know get it from over the counter sources in Thailand ( a lay over form some Brits coming home from Japan). You might check with Bernard Channing of Koi water gardens?
I get mine now from the old chain of Vet Hospitals I used to run. It is typically used for eye infections in dogs. JR