JR...I'm your numbskull!!!

[koiczar]

JR

While at Isawa Nishikigoi Center this past fall, Sakai was treating a minor scale infection. After he cleaned at the base of the scales involved, he used Lamasil to pack the area. I was totally blown away that they had an American based product and were using it. The tube labeling was actually in English, no Japanese characters that I could see when I looked it over. I thought, well, now I've seen everything, but I guess if it's an antibiotic cream it should do the trick. What do you think?

Mike

[kingkong]

Makes sense I guess. Terbinafine (Lamisil) is effective on the Dermatophytes fungus group which causes infection in Keratin fibrous strctured proteins which I believe fish scales are partly made of. Works great on toe nail fungus so what the heck.

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar JR While at Isawa Nishikigoi Center this past fall, Sakai was treating a minor scale infection. After he cleaned at the base of the scales involved, he used Lamasil to pack the area. I was totally blown away that they had an American based product and were using it. The tube labeling was actually in English, no Japanese characters that I could see when I looked it over. I thought, well, now I've seen everything, but I guess if it's an antibiotic cream it should do the trick. What do you think? Mike

Lamisil is used as an antifungal...not really good for bacteria.

A quick question....Has anyone here ever used a product called Gentian violet for infections? I have used it in the past...just wondered if anyone else here uses it.

[JasPR]

Sakai does one more thing before adding anything- if you watch him when he first spots a problem he will take a scaple and slide it under the scales to cut the epidermis and then he will wipe the fish with a towel in the direction of scales and remove the fluids from under the scales/dermis. This is typically a pink blood stained clear body fluid. I can;t say I have ever seen him pack a scale with that product? But I have always seen the injection given along with the scaple treatment.

Gentian violet is an inhibitor of bacterial growth, no? JR

[kingkong]

Another antifungal, but not for the feet. It is used for other body parts.

[Brutuscz]

I once spoke with a dermatologist about gentian violet. He said that of all the topicals, GV kills the most organisms(bacteria and fungus). He told me he tested this as a medical student with petri dishes and such. I have used it on my koi...the good thing is it stays on for a while...and it's cheap.
Oh..and we do use it on the feet. It can be used for athletes foot.

[kingkong]

I see it is classified as an antimicrobial antiseptic, so that means it must stop some bacteria from growing. My Bad. The thing that I learned from my doctor was the use of some non-antibiotic topical antiseptics was ok to clean wounds initially. He did not use iodine or hp . Healing wounds should not be treated with topical antiseptics because they are irritating and can kill fragile tissue. For example, iodine may linger and remain toxic and irritating in a wound area for 72 hours after applying.

[JasPR]

True, but not applicable, Kong. We are treating an ulcer the FIRST time with betadine- a very strong antisceptic. It does indeed burn! In fact, some of the stronger concentrations of this are not used in surgery any more because they do burn healthy skin that they are swabbed on.
But we have an infection. And as you know, infection creates dead and decaying skin margins. This is a preventative to healing. And worse, in fish, can have islands of infections buried UNDER healing skin areas. So this necrotic tissue must be dealt with. Betadine application along with a rather agressive scrub done the first time is part of the process of healing. The mistake that is made is to do this more than once or twice. That does become counter productive.
Once you see a white knitting tissue begin to grow, and no more yellow or gray tissue visible, you want to support the new skin with only orabase and topical antibiotics with steroids. JR

[kingkong]

The only thing I use betadine for is washing my hands before and after wound treatment. Now an infected wound is a different story. The infection has to be controlled or it will never heal. But this can be done by cleaning the wound or ulcer via debridement and then applying topical antibiotics rather than cauterizing it with a chemiacl such as iodine. The iodine kills everything in sight. This is what I was told when I cut my finger off so I took the betadine out of my first aid box.

[JasPR]

Bud, if you count the series of three shots per fish as separate events, I have conservatively treated , over the past 18 years or so, 5,000 koi with this technique. And you sir are INCORRECT!

You don't debride margins of an ulcer mechanically like preparing to suturing a wound that has been open for a while. All ulcers can be described as wounds, but not all wounds are ulcers! Our 'foot friend Brutus can tell you about diabetes ulcers on the foot and their healing verse an injury that results on a foot. Ulcers are a site of infection, pure and simple.
The ulcer itself, is a decay of the epidermal and dermal layer. The dermal layer is damaged by toxic byproduct from aeromonas metabolic activity. And the bacteria and it's agents are IN the cell tissue. Only secondary invaders like pseudomonas, for instance, are setting up and limited to/ on the surface itself. In other words, there is healthy tissue, very necrotic tissue and dying tissue, as well as superficial and embedded bacteria count. Sooooooo an antisceptic for cleaning surface bacteria or even a heaby handed burn is not enough. You need physical effort to remove suspect cells.
I repeat, Betadine, applied one or two two times ( if needed and a physical contact and removal of dead and decaying flesh is needed before healthy tissue can begin to skin over.
If the fish is responsive and if you have provided a steroid locally to reduce swelling from antisceptic and reaction to infection and if you have kept bacteria very low from topical antibiotic coverage as well as provided antibiotoc blood levels via injection ( that rise from below the infected area and treat from the 'inside out'---- you will have the beginning of white skinning of the ulcer at temperature ( 70 F- 80 F) within three- five days.

Trust me on this ( I've seen it 5000 times!) JR