JR...I'm your numbskull!!!

[Brutuscz]

Hi JR...My fish is the one being discussed on koimag. It is the one with dorsal fin rot. I posted originally on koivet..but they added it to the other website. When the fish arrived the dorsal fin was a little red and damaged. It didn't look that bad. After a month of quarantine..it looked the same. I added it to my pond. Well, the other day, the fish swam close to me and I noticed this. I have caught the fish, used clove oil as anasthesia. I injected with nuflor. I cleaned the wound with betadine..then applied PP paste. I put the fish back in the main pond. She has been doing fine...swimming with the crowd and eating very well. I am trying not to over treat. I figured I would leave her for 2 weeks..then catch again to re-examine the area. I have salted the pond to .03%. No other fish has a problem. I believe this was related to shipping trauma. I was hoping that by putting her in my main pond..with good water..she would heal fine. I should have injected immediately..but hindsight is 20/20. Some have expressed the idea of removing the ray...I have no problem doing this if I need to. I wanted to show this 17inch Isa showa next season..but, I guess that is out. Any advice is appreciated!!

[JasPR]

Hi , I didn't realize it was you! I think you did fine except I wish you hadn't used the PP. On one hand the PP is good for burning the topical bacteria count. But on the other, it will burn and disrupt delicate healing skin cells. I would have used another antiseptic like betadine and cleaned off the necrotic tissue and then used a Q-tp to clean out the bone shaft and surrounding skin ( I don't like the look of that skin at the base of the bone) then done the injection. Otherwise I think you are doing fine. And I would NOT remove the fin. That is nuts? I think that advise comes from/ as the extention of the whacky procedure of removing scales to get at aeromonas infections- also nuts. I have saved many scales by cleaning out the scale pockets with a Qtip dipped in betadine, and then packing the space with medicated ointment. The scale eventually tightens and remains intact.

Best of luck. JR

[Brutuscz]

As always...thanks for the help. It means a great deal. I will update in 2 weeks with new photo's. Hopefully, they will be better.

[schildkoi]

Hindsight is always 20/20 and its not a criticism that I agree with JR about the PP. The process that I might have done differently (again 20/20 hindsight) would have been to utilize Elbagin in the QT, with .3% salt and water temps in the 78F range.

Steve

[JasPR]

That would have been good too Steve. There are many ways to manage an injury and infection like this. The theme however is the same. Support the fish first and act only where necessary. The art , as someone else said, is in the wisdom of knowing how much and how soon. And above all, when not to be too heavy handed. Taking control of a problem is not the same as over reacting in the extreme to a problem.
I was stunned when I saw that tape of a 'fish vet expert' plucking all the scales surrounding an ulcer to limit the infection!!! Just nutzzzz. Nutzzzz in the extreme-!

I doubt the bone will grow back, by the way. And it certainly won't if the bone is cut off at the base. Not sure why someone said it would?? At best you will get a stump or some growth with a knot where the healing began. And reattachment to the fleshing dorsal fin is very very unlikely. So as a show fish, the future is dim. Sorry.
This is why moving koi, especially large show koi, should be taken very seriously. The breeders make moving koi look easy, but in truth, it needs to be done very carefully and deliberately. JR

[Brutuscz]

Well, like I said...I will give her 2 weeks and re evaluate. But let me ask this:
If that lead ray was completely cut out surgically...and the skin healed over at the base...will the next ray that is whole, become the new leading ray? Any chance of that looking normal?
I am a podiatrist...so, I do procedures all day(and my wife is a surgeon). I have no problem doing this type of work...but only if you think it would actually work. Has this ever been successful?

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I doubt the bone will grow back, by the way. And it certainly won't if the bone is cut off at the base. Not sure why someone said it would?? At best you will get a stump or some growth with a knot where the healing began. And reattachment to the fleshing dorsal fin is very very unlikely. So as a show fish, the future is dim. Sorry. This is why moving koi, especially large show koi, should be taken very seriously. The breeders make moving koi look easy, but in truth, it needs to be done very carefully and deliberately. JR

JR, that someone on NI was me. But I didn't make it a statement, but as a question.

Steve

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz Well, like I said...I will give her 2 weeks and re evaluate. But let me ask this: If that lead ray was completely cut out surgically...and the skin healed over at the base...will the next ray that is whole, become the new leading ray? Any chance of that looking normal? I am a podiatrist...so, I do procedures all day(and my wife is a surgeon). I have no problem doing this type of work...but only if you think it would actually work. Has this ever been successful?

There is no way to make a new leading ray. it will never look normal if you cut off the leading ray. And from the pics I have seen, you may get this to heal, but it will most likely have a knot on the main ray, and you probably will not ever get any of the fin to regrow back on to the main ray.

She will never be a show fish, now.

[Brutuscz]

Yeah, I figured as much. No good fishy plastic surgeons. Oh well...nice pond fish now. Guess I'll use her for breeding next season. I have a habit of over treating my fish. So..this time, I figured I would do the opposite. Now, I regret not injecting immediately. I will learn from this and not make that mistake again.

[koiboi31]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I was stunned when I saw that tape of a 'fish vet expert' plucking all the scales surrounding an ulcer to limit the infection!!! Just nutzzzz. Nutzzzz in the extreme-! JR

JR,

Do you only mean it's nuts to remove living scales to access a wound - if the scale is dead then surely it needs to be taken out?

Regards,