What do you think of this Sanke?

[aquitori]

What do you think of this Sanke? It is 18.5 inches...

[dick benbow]

hard to tell from a photo the things I like to see to really gauge. Pattern wise it's got a lot to like, would love to have seen a tail stop. What can you tell us about it?

[Richard Rombold]

Aquitori,

It's probably won GC at a dozen shows if I know you, but I dislike it. It's on par with what we are producing in the States. The beni is inconsistent and unorganized. It appears poorly taken care of. I don't like the body, and it's past it's peak. So what's the catch?

Richard

By the way, I appreciate the way you keep the topics rolling on the thread.

[111whalen]

I like it-it isn't perfect-tail beni is a minor problem. The quality of the red and black is good. What do you think of the white? Shiro is very important to set up the other two colors. Not sure on this one. Price? Breeder?

[JasPR]

Nice fish. I would get more info about it's origin as it is impossible to guess about certain aspects of the beni unless you know the lineage. This is why Japanese breeders are reluctant to go too deeping into judging other's lines.
As you know, beni that moves in isolated islands along the kiwa is a worry, yet in the high class lines ( Matsunosuke, Momotaro and all who get breeding stock from same), the elastic nature of their beni has this a common effect until age three with most of the clusters of beni being pulled into place nicely as the three year beni coat comes on. The key is to study the kiwa on the lateral line as it is an area of more 'dependable guessing'. You will then get a sense of just how different Dainichi beni is from matsunosuke beni for example.

Things I like about this fish:

General quality
head length
pattern

Things I'm worried about:

Condition or state of shiro
future of beni ( although apparently not as much as the other guys)
size of pec fins ( maybe an illusion from snap of the picture and fin movement creating the impression of undersized pecs)

Still, get the white up and you have a killer show fish for the next few years. OR find out more about the lineage and we may be looking at a tategoi set to pop at age four?!
This fish has both male and female traits- have you sexed it? JR

all and all, a fish to study on and learn from , IMHO

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold Aquitori, It's probably won GC at a dozen shows if I know you, but I dislike it. It's on par with what we are producing in the States. The beni is inconsistent and unorganized. It appears poorly taken care of. I don't like the body, and it's past it's peak. So what's the catch? Richard By the way, I appreciate the way you keep the topics rolling on the thread.

No catch, my friend emailed me this pic of this Sanke he bought. It hasnt won any awards, the pattern is to each his own and the pic has a slight blur to it...I just wanted get some opinions on it. As my friend is one who pulls the trigger on fish he shouldn't pull the trigger on. Then again he is one who studies the hobby more than some in the Bay Area even thou he is limited in the English language.

[aquitori]

All get more info for you Sanke folks....

[Flounder]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR As you know, beni that moves in isolated islands along the kiwa is a worry, yet in the high class lines ( Matsunosuke, Momotaro and all who get breeding stock from same), the elastic nature of their beni has this a common effect until age three with most of the clusters of beni being pulled into place nicely as the three year beni coat comes on. The key is to study the kiwa on the lateral line as it is an area of more 'dependable guessing'. You will then get a sense of just how different Dainichi beni is from matsunosuke beni for example.

JR, please explain how Dainichi beni is different?

[JasPR]

I'd say that when you talk about beni you have to be very careful about generalizations. To be clear, there ARE certain traits, as it pertains to beni as color cells that are probably universal.
But then you have beni that is combinations of color cell types that process and store different shades. Red/red beni is one such result, and yellow/orange beni is another and more desirable result due to the way it develops over time
To this we add the different skin types and how that beni will look in shiro skin of different characteristics such as thickness, translucency and dimension.
So to bring this all home, we can have---

a color that refects the type of cell or cells that make up beni.
A skin that acts as a canvas for the amount and arrangement of beni
A combination of skin and beni type that gives the human eye an impression

Dainichi is a beautiful soft and bright orange beni. As the fish ages, the orangy beni seems to get redder, yet in the ideal, never red/red or purple red. But rather a soft bright delicate looking red. This is accomplished due to the shiro ground AND a layering of that orange beni like sheets of orange colored pexiglass laid upon one another would give the effect of a deeper color when all stacked layers were viewed as one from above.
Matsunosuke beni from sanke is a yellow/orange beni that in some stages of development looks almost brownish, especially when it is seen on certain skin. This is, in my opinion, not as 'pretty' a shade as the Dainichi beni when it is in full glory. But it is complicated and impressive beni as it can potentially lay down more layers of yellow/red beni than other lines.

This is a brief description of two of the line's characteristics. Hopefully you can appreciate how some things are universal and some things are quite different.
In addition either of these lines can throw individuals with universal bad traits! ONE thick colorful layer of beni in either line is a doomed show fish.
This is what makes koi LIVING art. You need to be able to assess a koi's beni based on it's age as traits vary with age. In once sense, the koi show misteaches this lesson ( or at least does not put the judging decision in context) and this is very frustrating for breeders to watch. Good traits can be ignored in beauty contests in favor of finished traits ( for age). This IS confusing. But hopefully the advanced hobbyist can sort out these things in their mind when they are buying future fish and when they are buying now fish. JR

[Richard Rombold]

Jr,

Thanks, your wonderful insights have given me a knew perspective to mull over. With my blood lines the most robust fish develop very thick bodies early and then lengthen. This fish too me seems to lack robustness, but this may simply be ignorance about the history and bloodline of this fish. Also, the pattern and beni concern me still for the future. But, I was too quick to pass judgement and thank you for your more thoughtful response.

Richard