Since Muhammed can't go to the Mountain . . .

[KoiCop]

JR . . .

Thanks for expanding on our knowledge of biofilm, eutrophication, microbial balance and koi health. Who knows -- it might even come in handy 'over there.'

[JasPR]

You are welcome Don . As you know, the more of this stuff that the average hobbyist understands, the less likely they are to wander into product after product and waste years of their time trying to find a working system. More people leave the hobby every year due to frustration and never ending problems than leave from bordom due to instant success. Chronic sick fish, ponds that never clear, electrical disasters, etc.

I think that those that scorn the idea of 'one way' are a product of people who have wandered into a fix that works for them at the moment. And at that moment when they have licked the lastest problem or desaster they have a sense that they have found THE fix and a 'new way' to cope. Never realizing that the rest of us don't have those issues that lead to the 'new way' to begin with.
One true way is often misunderstood to mean ONE product to use or ONE shape to a filter or one brand of prefilter. That misunderstanding is proof that on the outside looking in, there is general confusion about the big picture.
I know of no one who attempts to build a house without a blue print? But we build ponds all the time without a thought and then 'retro-fit' it for the next ten years!
This subject of understanding the very biology that supports large fish like koi is KEY to success. It is not hard to understand. And if a system is done well and free from compromise, there is no better way known to run a koi pond. I'm not sure why people resist that fact? Ego/vanity? Economic issues?Financial gain? Just for fun or mischief making? I'm not sure?
JR

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR You are welcome Don . As you know, the more of this stuff that the average hobbyist understands, the less likely they are to wander into product after product and waste years of their time trying to find a working system. More people leave the hobby every year due to frustration and never ending problems than leave from bordom due to instant success. Chronic sick fish, ponds that never clear, electrical disasters, etc. I think that those that scorn the idea of 'one way' are a product of people who have wandered into a fix that works for them at the moment. And at that moment when they have licked the lastest problem or desaster they have a sense that they have found THE fix and a 'new way' to cope. Never realizing that the rest of us don't have those issues that lead to the 'new way' to begin with. One true way is often misunderstood to mean ONE product to use or ONE shape to a filter or one brand of prefilter. That misunderstanding is proof that on the outside looking in, there is general confusion about the big picture. I know of no one who attempts to build a house without a blue print? But we build ponds all the time without a thought and then 'retro-fit' it for the next ten years! This subject of understanding the very biology that supports large fish like koi is KEY to success. It is not hard to understand. And if a system is done well and free from compromise, there is no better way known to run a koi pond. I'm not sure why people resist that fact? Ego/vanity? Economic issues?Financial gain? Just for fun or mischief making? I'm not sure? JR

JR

If everyone remained satisfied with the status quo we would never move beyond it. These mental exercises are important in that they will either reinforce existing concepts or expand our knowledge. After all, how would we have gottern bottom drains and air domes if someone wasn't challenging the status quo?

The everlasting search for a better mousetrap is part of the human condition.

[JasPR]

Well Carl that is the kinda of innocent arrogance I'm talking about. That is not an insult by the way so don't be offended. It is an innocent perspective that often creates quirky corrections to problems that shouldn't exist to begin with. I can name ten of them that have come, been THE answer and then disappeared on these many koi boards in the last ten years. It's all fun. Fun for people- if only the koi didn't have to go through it with their keepers/tormentors.

The koi filter core function has not changed in 60 years. And certainly the bacteria that runs them has not changed in a 1000 years. Man's vanity certainly has not changed in 10,000 years.

The very first 'bioreactor' in koi ponds were gravel beds. Either IN the pond, or outside the pond. This was both a mechanical and biological filter for managing inorganic and organic pollution. It then was refined, and refined again to manage organic and inorganic pollution. From trapping the inorganic material to removing it. From needing massive space for nitrification to becoming so efficient that less space was needed. This is not change to a 'new concept' this is the evolution of one concept.
Koi keeping teaches humility. I find the newbie to be, at times, the least humble of all. The fertile ground that produces the innocent arrogant.
- JR

[JasPR]

Sorry Carl, I didn't address your example of the bottom drain. That air dome of course is an extension of the basic dome. The dome and drain is an extension of the raw drain ( no cap) that lead to a sump. Before that the drain lead directly to waste and was only flushed weekly or daily ( usually with a stand pipe, later replaced with a value) to remove accumulated organics. All an ever more efficient elegant design for delivering inorganic and organic pollution to, ultimately, waste ( same as in the beginning) and the bioreactor section of the filter.

A 'new way' to approach this evolutionary development would be to physically remove the waste with a net and then replace that with a vacuum cleaner ( maybe with physical pump action) and then a fancier electric suction, self priming vacuum with turbo action and then maybe use of PP to make organics go away and then maybe ozone to try and burn it away and then maybe bottled bacteria to eat it away and then maybe more PP to remove the extra bacteria count and then maybe algacide to remove the green cells that replace the bacteria cells and then maybe more bottled bacteria, and then maybe------- and so it goes------ Innocent arrogance.

[MikeM]

You mentioned the fundamental issue, JR... success in keeping a very large fish.

So many of these 'new ideas' work fine until the fish grow, or if the fish becomes stunted due to poor water, etc. So many people who get koi simply do not understand that they are intended by Nature to grow large. When we had a pond tour last May, I had folks repeatedly saying 'they grow to fit the size of the pond'. Whenever I heard that, I'd say: 'Actually they grow until they are too big for the pond system. Then you get troubles, unless the pond and stocking rate are sized to work together.' It's like all the Pacu and Red-Tailed Catfish sold to the teenager with a 20 gallon aquarium. It's ridiculous and doomed. I have no fundamental objection to small koi being treated as annuals. If they weren't, most would be culled anyway... either means of death is unpleasant. But I do object to the profit-making based on deception, and misleading information generally.

The folks who trumpet these 'new ideas' or new products should disclose their degree of personal success in raising a koi for 5 years to full mature size using their idea or product. Some would surely prove wonderful for the first year of a koi's life, but not suited to the adult fish... rather like what suits that cute 2" Pacu as it grows to a 24" dinner-plate. A playpen is fine for controlling and protecting the baby, but it takes a lot more as the baby becomes a toddler, a teen and eventually an adult.

[JasPR]

That's true and a good point. Most beginners enter with false assumptions and little background or information and are set up for failure early on. And by extension are the natural prey for landscapers, garden centers and whacky ideas posted from time to time on the Internet. JR

[KoiCop]

Jim & Mike . . .

Well done, guys; as always you're dead on. Any time knowledge and understanding don't mesh with expectations someone's gonna have to pay the fiddler.

Priorities, now -- that's an entirely different conversation.

What we have in this particular instance is not someone who lacks the basic knowledge and understanding; nor is it someone who has unrealistic expectations. What we have here is someone with different priorities; one who is perfectly willing to trade off some of this to achieve some of that.

And therein would appear to lie the rub: What and how much does this system trade off and what, exactly, does it seek to achieve?

It is the answers to these questions that will, ultimately, determine the market share for this system -- our personal and professional opinions not withstanding.

[MikeM]

Yep. The science is basically correct. It is a failure to comprehend the practical application issues that leads to the problems.

[schildkoi]

Quote: And if a system is done well and free from compromise, there is no better way known to run a koi pond.

Either you have learned something from me (for a change ) or you are infringing on my verbiage.

Steve