Since Muhammed can't go to the Mountain . . .

[dick benbow]

I think when it comes to the average pond keeper, folks want to enjoy a pond like they do their modern auto. Get in turn the key and drive it. How it works is less of a concern until it doesn't.

Staying with the auto analogy, those who work on antique autos know their workings very well and enjoy the puttering and keeping them fit. These folks whether they putter with filters or autos have a better understanding then the turn key folks. I think we call them DIY'ers.......

I liked using the auto analogy because of our subject's use of cubic inches in engines and relating it to horsepower and filter design. I won't "bore" you with any more auto talk except to say in both threaters a smaller more efficient "foot print" has been the trend for a while now.

Jim's passion for helping us all understand how and why a filter works has helped move the few turn key folks a little closer to understanding. Now the big problem is getting enough folks to read his material. Remember back in school when they were reading requirerments

[gregbickal]

Yep, im the Greg Sorry I missed this thread.

My pond is not a typical koi pond, as I do use veggie filtration to aide in the nitrate removal. I like plants, and want plants. Can I be using my plants more efficiently, that is what interested me about the Anoxic Filtration System. Is there a right way and a wrong way to use plants, and have I slipped into using them the wrong way, causing me bacteria problems. I'll trust you Doctors/Experts to steer me in the right direction

What percentage of the people who have ponds with koi are people who also have plants in the pond? So lets make sure if they have plants, they do it in the best possible way correct....

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Well Carl that is the kinda of innocent arrogance I'm talking about. That is not an insult by the way so don't be offended. It is an innocent perspective that often creates quirky corrections to problems that shouldn't exist to begin with. I can name ten of them that have come, been THE answer and then disappeared on these many koi boards in the last ten years. It's all fun. Fun for people- if only the koi didn't have to go through it with their keepers/tormentors. The koi filter core function has not changed in 60 years. And certainly the bacteria that runs them has not changed in a 1000 years. Man's vanity certainly has not changed in 10,000 years. The very first 'bioreactor' in koi ponds were gravel beds. Either IN the pond, or outside the pond. This was both a mechanical and biological filter for managing inorganic and organic pollution. It then was refined, and refined again to manage organic and inorganic pollution. From trapping the inorganic material to removing it. From needing massive space for nitrification to becoming so efficient that less space was needed. This is not change to a 'new concept' this is the evolution of one concept. Koi keeping teaches humility. I find the newbie to be, at times, the least humble of all. The fertile ground that produces the innocent arrogant. - JR

JR

I am not offended. I understand your meaning, but I couldn't disagree more. I certainly am not arguing as to the relative merits of the traditional koi pond system versus Dr. Novak's system. I don't know the system and am skeptical of its efficacy.

However, we are going to have to continue to disagree, if in fact you disagree with my proposition that satisfaction with the status quo is an anathema to innovation and creativity. As soon as everyone is convinced that the present system is the best possible system, there is no opportunity for improvement, and the notion that anything we are doing at any given time is as good as it's going to get is hubris, a special kind of arrogance.

[KoiCop]

Hi Ya, Greg . . .

Thought that was you in the Q & A email exchange.

I put this post up for Dr. Novak over on KV this morning, but he hasn't responded. Since he only has internet at work, and only posts on his lunch hour, seems we won't hear back from him 'till next week. Bummer, eh?

Since you've had the benefit of both the CD and the Q & A email exchange with Dr. Novak, I'm hoping that you'll be able to fill in some of these blanks to help move things along.

If so, I'd sure appreciate it.

Hello Dr. Novak . . .

Both Koi Health Advisors on pond visits and Moderators on KoiVet’s Sick Fish/Pond Forum are familiar with using a series of questions such as these to help visualize and/or understand the dynamics of a pond under discussion -- so I thought it might be helpful to adapt and apply them here? Then we can move on together with a better understanding of your pond, how it works and what you have been able to achieve.

I’m hoping you’ll be kind enough to fill in some of these blanks so those of us who have not had the benefit of either a personal tour (or the CD) can move on together with a clearer understanding of your pond’s particulars.

1. Type of Pond? Small above ground.

2. Construction Method? Timber frame with liner.

3. Dimensions?
a. Living area: ? x ? x 2’.
b. Settlement/Filtration area: 8’ x 4’ x 2’

4. System water volume?
a. Living area: 720 gallons
b. Settlement/Filtration area: 480 gallons
c. Miscellaneous other: ? gallons
d. Total volume: 1200 + ? gallons

5. Basic water chemistry?
a. Source, i.e. tap, well, other:
b. Ph: 7.4
c. Kh:
d. Gh:

6. Bioconversion type? Biocenosis clarification baskets.
a. Size:
b. Number:
c. Contents: Kitty litter & laterite

7. Pumps, their location(s) & flow rate(s)?

8. Do all pumps run 24/7?

9. Additional plumbing features, i.e. number and type, etc.?
a. Pre-filter:
b. Drains:
c. TPR’s (jets):
d. Venturis:
e. Skimmers:
f. Stand pipes:
g. UV light:

10. Supplemental aeration?
a. Volume (lpm):
b. Type (stones, diffusion ring, etc.):
c. Location:

11. Water changes, i.e. frequency and amount?
a. Routine:
b. Major:
c. Flow through (gallons per day):

12. Regular maintenance:
a. How often are the Biocenosis clarification baskets cleaned and how are they cleaned? No cleaning required. Replace laterite every ten years. Trim/repot plants as needed.
b. What is the frequency of other regular maintenance, e.g., pre-filter, leaf traps, UV light bulb replacement?
c. How often is the pond mucked out? Once or twice per year.

13. Are any chemicals routinely added to maintain water quality, i.e. PP, Sodium Percarbonate, Baking Soda, Calcium Chloride, oyster shell, Algae-fix, etc.?

14. Are any chemicals/medicines routinely added to control pathogens/parasites, i.e. seasonal shotgun treatments using salt, PP, Proform C, Prazi, Dimilin, etc.?

15. Is salt routinely added to pond?
a. Amount:
b. Frequency:

16. Stocking Levels:
a. Number: 12 koi
b. Size: (1) 12”, (3) 17”, (4) 19”, (1) 24”, (1) 26”, (2) 28”
c. Ratios, i.e. gallons/koi, gallons/inch: I'll compute once pond volume is known

17. Plants in pond, i.e. types and density?
a. Living area:
b. Settlement/Filtration area: Yes; type?; density?

18. Pond water readings:
a. Ph:
b. Kh:
c. Gh:
d. Oxygen saturation:
e. ORP:
f. TDS:
g. Other:

I know this must seem rather mundane to you. And I'm sure you'd rather discuss the exciting scientific stuff, but I do think this will help to facilitate our internet discussion.

Just remember: This thread will live on long after all of us have 'left the hobby' so it's important to memorialize these baseline stats and descriptions right here in the thread.

Thanking you in advance,

-----

Sure hope you can help, Greg.

[gregbickal]

During my previous e-mail discussion with Kevin I had asked permission to post some of the info from the CD on-line (since the CD was being distributed for free), here was his response:

Quote: I prefer that you did not place any pages on the internet from my cd-book. The book is copyrighted and that then infringes on those copyrights laws that I paid for. Next year I will not send the cd out for free and all people that want the cd will have to pay shipping and handling of $10.00. After all if some people on the internet think that me absorbing the cost for such is not that much, well then I will not do it any more. It has cost me thousands of dollars, out of my own pocket to make and sent out those cd to people. You of all people know that better than I.

I think I can answer a few of those questions without infringing on copyright....

6a: I see 2 sizes specified, 11x11x7 or 14x14x10
6b: Of the ponds described on the CD, it was anywhere from 1 basket per 70gallon to 1 basket per 300 gallons. Im not sure if that is a large basket or a small one. Im also not sure what recommended fish density that allows for. I would think that you would want a "how many baskets per pounds of koi" type of specification.
7: It appears to me that the pump can be in the skimmer or separate chamber, and pumps up to this type of filter. However from my questions, the pump can be anywhere in the system and that this system also would work via gravity flo.
8: I think the answer is yes.
9: The diagram on the CD mentions a pre-filter, UV, Skimmer. From what I understand from my questions, all normal mechanical filtration can be done however you choose. Drains, settling, etc. That this system is a bio-logical filter.

[KoiCop]

Thanks, Greg. Very interesting.

[JasPR]

I think you can appreciate what I said earlier about a large filter that can not accommodate more fish- it is a valuable dilution factor. Plants, especially floating plants house bacteria as much as any other surface.

And Carl, thanks for your response. I regret that I didn't make my points in your regard. But honestly, the INNOVATION is there, in the evolution of the fundamental concept of managing a closed system. This is why I said that those of a newer orientation are at a disadvantage as they have no grasp of the big picture and therefore lack perspective- this is an incubator for innocent arrogance. So plenty of INNOVATION from the raw stand pipe to bottom drain that delivers waste to an isolation sump or vortex. And then the answer unit and the rotating sceen and the auto flush and the --- ect. All part of the same big picture concept. Perhaps you are confusing yourself with the logic of what I'm saying? And perhaps you are thinking about other systems that don't involve biological principles like the way we communicate today compared to twenty years ago? Communication, medicine, manufacturing have all changed. But people still use their ears to listen and voice to speak. And people still die of infection just as they did in the caves. And we still make things- just more things , more efficiently.
A koi pond is a giant, living digestive tract. This biology doesn't change. And because it is located outside, changing it would be like changing all the rules of surrounding nature. Even if you do no seeding of your new system whatsoever,the same species will come, only the start up and dominance will take longer- but it will wind up in the same place eventually ( if conditions are right). So we do not dominate anything- we influence it. And the principle is always the same- inorganic and organic waste management by encouraging an environment that is biologically conditioned by microbes that are also compatible with koi. So innovating ways to make this all more efficient and reliable is where my hubris lies. Fighting these realities due to lack of understanding and using bandaid upon bandaid or products to address one break down in the chain ( and actually gaining some level of success over that one breakdown) is where the innocent arrogant does harm. Not to themselves necessiarly, but to the hundreds that read this success in the moment as a 'new way' of ignoring the rules of nature. - JR

[Roddy Conrad]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR well once again, so close--- but twenty years behind the latest understanding of things? 1) it is not nitrosomonas and nitrobacter but rather nitrosospira and nitrospina that drive our ponds. But then again some level of the former function in our ponds as well. 2) who turns off their ponds in winter any more? Certainly not most of the 'people'. 3) I hope we are not returning to the confusion over sodium bentonite and calcium bentonite again with the use of kitty litter?? WHY do these PhD's have a fixation on kitty litter??

Hey, JR, no argument with you on points 1 and 2.

Kitty Litter is a superior potting media for the plant in a combined water garden and fish pond. I have been using it in my practical water gardens where we also keep either Sarassa Comet goldfish or golden orfes. The kitty litter is harder for the fish to uproot the plants, the plant thrive in the kitty litter, and there is plenty of mineral content in the kitty litter to replinish the mineral deficient source water here in the mountains of West Virginia.

While kitty litter is a very poor material compared to calcium bentonite for providing silica and minerals to a koi pon, it is great for potting plants in a combined water garden and fish pond. The problem with using kitty litter broadcast in a plantless koi pond is that the water clarity suffers for quite some time after the charge.

And, of course, it is the silica absorbing and removing impurities from the water that makes the bentonite clay most useful in koi ponds, not the trace mineral content. There seems to be some confusion about that on occasion.

And certainly kitty litter is a superior potting media for the idea of a plant filter system for a koi pond as our good Ph. D. friend describes on his CD.

[JasPR]

I see. Thanks Roddy. Best, JR

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad Hey, JR, no argument with you on points 1 and 2. Kitty Litter is a superior potting media for the plant in a combined water garden and fish pond. I have been using it in my practical water gardens where we also keep either Sarassa Comet goldfish or golden orfes. The kitty litter is harder for the fish to uproot the plants, the plant thrive in the kitty litter, and there is plenty of mineral content in the kitty litter to replinish the mineral deficient source water here in the mountains of West Virginia. While kitty litter is a very poor material compared to calcium bentonite for providing silica and minerals to a koi pon, it is great for potting plants in a combined water garden and fish pond. The problem with using kitty litter broadcast in a plantless koi pond is that the water clarity suffers for quite some time after the charge. And, of course, it is the silica absorbing and removing impurities from the water that makes the bentonite clay most useful in koi ponds, not the trace mineral content. There seems to be some confusion about that on occasion. And certainly kitty litter is a superior potting media for the idea of a plant filter system for a koi pond as our good Ph. D. friend describes on his CD.

Roddy..I had a quick question. Have you ever used pulverized limestone to replace minerals. It is sold in home depot..40lbs for less than $3. It is 87%calcium. Some guys in the reef hobby are using it...just wondered if it had any practical application in a koi pond. My water is very soft..so, I was looking into it. Thanks for any advice.