Matsunosuke body

[l113892]

I, like many, have read and owned a gosanke with a matsunosuke body. Since I don't hear anyone else suggesting this, I guess I alone in my opinion, but I just don't like the Matsunosuke body shape. Just a minute- I moved to another location in the office so I don't struck by lightning. I have a kohaku that I selected at nisai in Japan, grew out for one year in a mud pond, and then grew out in my pond for another two years. The body shape has not improved over that time and I decided this year that I was no longer going to take her to shows. I get some ouus and ahhs over her but that is because of her rich red beni. Without the body shape, she will never do well in a koi show. I've read advice on diet but when other fish fill out just fine, I don't know how I'd deliver a special diet to just one fish. I've also received feedback that a Matsunosuke body will fill out in later years- well, "I'm waiting"

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 I, like many, have read and owned a gosanke with a matsunosuke body. Since I don't hear anyone else suggesting this, I guess I alone in my opinion, but I just don't like the Matsunosuke body shape. Just a minute- I moved to another location in the office so I don't struck by lightning. I have a kohaku that I selected at nisai in Japan, grew out for one year in a mud pond, and then grew out in my pond for another two years. The body shape has not improved over that time and I decided this year that I was no longer going to take her to shows. I get some ouus and ahhs over her but that is because of her rich red beni. Without the body shape, she will never do well in a koi show. I've read advice on diet but when other fish fill out just fine, I don't know how I'd deliver a special diet to just one fish. I've also received feedback that a Matsunosuke body will fill out in later years- well, "I'm waiting"

Do you have a pic of the fish in question? So, I take it the fish is Gosai now?

It's funny that in my pond I have a Kohaku from Sakai Isawa that doesnt have the conformation of Matsunosuke, but more over to Sensuke.

[gjs63]

I also have a Matsunoske Kohaku female, 5 or 7 yr. old. I started to think it was a male since it seems long and not filling out. I was told, by "knowlegable koi breeder" that these fish grow long untill they are mature, (a good thing) then fill out. Mine does seem to be filling out a bit this summer and is moore aggressive at feeding time. I am watching her every day, waiting is the hard part. Don't give up. J

[l113892]

The kohaku is Rokusai.

[JasPR]

Matsunosuke body is the ultimate tategoi as the body does not finish up bulking up until the fish is at least six or seven years old. Until then they look awkward and like a 'living cigar' more than 'living art'. And you must also appreciate that it often is only IN Japan that adult koi can really be bulked up at all? So we in the west are left with the mistaken notion that the juvenile/young adult shape is THE shape that Japanese connoisseurs are looking for when they praise young matsunosuke tategoi. When in fact it is not. What they look for is the obvious and easily identified 'teen' phase so that they might finish the body line in a jumbo size.
If you look at Momotaro jumbos you can see the matsunosuke blood in those very pleasing jumbo fish- when the proper flesh is on the fish. The fish gives a different impression then and the matsunosuke chassis can be easily missed by the casual eye. JR

[JasPR]

34th GC All Japan combined - a VERY large fish with not as much bulk as the usual finished matsunosuke adult.

[JasPR]

A typical Matsunosuke baby that a westerner might be put off by due to the cigar shape and long distance from nose to beginning of dorsal fin.

[Brady Brandwood]

JR is right on. Some folks just won't have the pond facility or the techniques to develop the body, or bulk it up and fill it out to its potential.

The traditional Matsunosuke style body was primarily associated with the Sanke. There are new versions of the Matsunosuke frame these days. Though some of us don't like that "look", we have to keep in mind that it does come with a benefit package. The Koi with this frame that do bulk up and fill out as adults look absolutely incredible in person, AND even the females that don't get bulked up never show a heavy belly or egg pouch even into old age. The body stays shapely.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[dick benbow]

In Japan, the hobbyist are more focused on showing fish when they are finished. Some of toshio's work won at the all japan show at 20 years of age.
The kohaku posted was really nice. I think in 3 years it will bulk the way you want it to. Because I've been a Matsunosuke fan for over 20 years, it's the other fish that plump in a hurry that look strange to me. The pic JR posted of the koi with the long body from nose to dorsal is the poster child for magoi bloodline. Once you can recognize the look, you can identify it. I found one at the dealer who hosted the Puget Sound Show this past weekend. It now resides with a lady named carmen in the tri-cities of Washington state. I told her figure on 10 years

[RayJordan]

Remember that not all koi of a certain bloodline will develop according to that bloodline characterics. It is amazing how many skinny koi are claimed to be "Matsunosuke" bloodline. Sort of like the too skinny female that is guaranteed to be female. It might be female - but so what it is still too skinny.

Lots of things taught about koi development may or may not be ture for an individual koi.

Sumi develops later than Beni - unless it doesn't
Beni doesn't expand - unless it does
Females develop later than males and keep their peak longer - unless they don't
Matsunosuke are supposed to be skinny and will develop good conformation when they are older - unless they don't

There are no guarantees in koi unless it is that each koi is unique.