Matsunosuke - 20 Boxes

[dick benbow]

thanks Russ for taking the time to share your pictures with us. never ceases to amaze me that at any time of the year, Toshio has fish available. As I glanced thru all the pictures it was fun to see the long rail shapes of typical matsunosuke looking fish. Decades ago when folks would visit his place and you'd ask what they thought, they always mentioned his koi are too long and thin. Glad some things never change! LOL

I think your pointing out the mixed mesaage of the sanke/showa helps folks to understand that in building up the black in showa, sanke was what was used.

Anyway, thanks again as I felt it would be months before we'd see any pics you posted at the harvest so having something to see ahead of time helps.

I need to get over to Dan and Sharon's next month to measure, photo and compare notes on some study fish from toshio. This is one of the showas . Lots has happened since this photo. What I'm learning from his new marusome koi is that lots of rules have changed on selection.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by John F Nice looking fish! I am curious though. Those 10"-12" Tosai, were they bred spring of 07" ? If so that is incredible for the size they are in only 4 months. If not I guess they would not be Tosai huh.

John,

Isawa Nishikigoi Center is in the hot springs area and all of their water comes out of the ground heated. Because of this they have many spawnings at different times, unlike the Niigata area. Although I did not ask when they were born, Miwa Sakai calls them Tosai.

[JasPR]

Russ, are you sure this is one of the new showa line? It looks very much like a Sakuma showa, his neighbor. Did he trade stock to get you different lines/looks and price ranges maybe?

Here's my sakuma showa from Isawa--

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Russ, are you sure this is one of the new showa line? It looks very much like a Sakuma showa, his neighbor. Did he trade stock to get you different lines/looks and price ranges maybe? Here's my sakuma showa from Isawa--

Nice Showa JR!!!

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Too many windows on the showa, does not bow well for future development. You also don't want to see sumi and beni mix on top of one another ( you will notice that this effect looks like brown when the light is strong or the koi's luster is down for any reason). The separation of sumi, shiro and beni to a great degree is of course difficult and makes those specimens prohibitively expensive. But if you can get sumi on shiro ground and beni on shiro ground you have deeper, more stable color in the long run. And windows are ultimately a stability issue also, that is why they are considered a demerit in judging. The judging should re-enforce the breeding standard and elevate soundness of body and color. - JR

Mr. Sakai has been teaching me many things about his Showa. He has developed sumi that does become very strong even over beni. You should have seen the smile on his face when he points out these things to me. It is like he is discovering it for the first time. I have also spoken to Mr. Sakai about windows. His feeling on windows is that they are only a problem if it is because of week beni, this is not week beni on this Showa.
On my first visit to see Futoshi Maruyama he took the time to show us a series of pictures of his Grand Champion showa as it developed over the years. One of the first things I noticed was a window that appeared in the beni one year, was gone the next and was back again the following year. When I asked him about the window he laughed and said that it was not a problem. He voiced the same opinion on windows that Mr. Sakai had. Don't get me wrong here, I am absolutley not saying that the Showa I posted is even close to the caliber of Maruyama's GC Showa. It is merely to point out the views of two high quality breeders.

The Showa I posted is still a young Koi. The quality is there and it will develop and change over time. As far as the sumi over beni goes, here is a picture of my Showa that took 2nd place at the All-Japan Show. It is an example of how Toshio Sakai has been able to develope sumi with amazing depth even over beni. With Mr. Sakai's Showa I do not think you can always judge them the same as you would other Showa. He has raised the bar.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Russ, are you sure this is one of the new showa line? It looks very much like a Sakuma showa, his neighbor. Did he trade stock to get you different lines/looks and price ranges maybe? Here's my sakuma showa from Isawa--

JR,

I really don't know how to answer this one so I decided to e-mail Miwa your concerns. I have asked her to ask her father if it is his Showa or not.

It is my understanding that it is his new line of Showa. I will let you know what Mr. Sakai says.

[koiczar]

JR

How sure are you that Sakuma isn't using some of Sakai's "new line" for his breeding program. Maybe he feels he needs to get on board to keep up with Toshio!?!?!? I too see some similarities but I don't think Sakai is borrowing from anyone. He's worked too hard to develop this line on his own!

Here's a couple. Tell me which one is from which breeder -
MIke

[JasPR]

I seem to have touched a sensitive spot here, which was not my intention. And I never said 'borrowed' as in borrowing breeders. I said traded, as in trading tosai, which these guys do all the time. If you check out Sakai's other green house you will see lots of Sakai Hiroshima shipping boxes for instance. And in the past, Toshio Sakai always encourages shopping for other varieties if he does not have at the moment with local breeders. He will no longer take them back to his shop like the old days however. In fact, I was once bumming around with him and he stopped at several breeders and bought a few fish back. I think I was with Mat MCCann on that trip. I'll see if I have pictures- yep---- Our dinner that night.
Russ, I'm aware of what you are saying about the sumi. I saw the first fish from the original breeding before any stock was for sale. So I get what your saying about the sumi. But I can't accept the window explaination as it has long been a culling point. I think Toshio might be spinning there a little?
You guys do know I've been visiting Sakai since 1994 right? He's a master breeder and a master salesman.

[JasPR]

when I think of Sakai's showas I think of strong kohaku traits and sanke sumi? Here's an early release thats hows the kohaku beni ( note the star centers to the scales) and a hybrid kohaku/showa body. The sumi is very sanke like and not so showa like except for the fact that it wraps and streaks instead of being a sanke 'island'.
I think the olsen's have a very good example.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I seem to have touched a sensitive spot here, which was not my intention. And I never said 'borrowed' as in borrowing breeders. I said traded, as in trading tosai, which these guys do all the time. If you check out Sakai's other green house you will see lots of Sakai Hiroshima shipping boxes for instance. And in the past, Toshio Sakai always encourages shopping for other varieties if he does not have at the moment with local breeders. He will no longer take them back to his shop like the old days however. In fact, I was once bumming around with him and he stopped at several breeders and bought a few fish back. I think I was with Mat MCCann on that trip. I'll see if I have pictures- yep---- Our dinner that night. Russ, I'm aware of what you are saying about the sumi. I saw the first fish from the original breeding before any stock was for sale. So I get what your saying about the sumi. But I can't accept the window explaination as it has long been a culling point. I think Toshio might be spinning there a little? You guys do know I've been visiting Sakai since 1994 right? He's a master breeder and a master salesman.

Hi JR,

No offense taken here, I do appreciate any information you share. it is always a learning experience.