Quality vs. Pattern?

[dick benbow]

Fortunately for me I love sanke and showa, so as a young undeveloped patterned koi, I can buy the quality and body shape and just MAYBE have the black fill in where it does the most good!

[weesec01]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow Fortunately for me I love sanke and showa, so as a young undeveloped patterned koi, I can buy the quality and body shape and just MAYBE have the black fill in where it does the most good!

Yes. for Sanke and showa, we always hope that the sumi will develop in future with some basic secondary sumi indication eg. for showa, motoguro and sumi on shoulder, sumi development in future is great.

How about Kohaku? Let post a pic here for comment: a kohaku and a showa. Sorry, this pic is not very clear.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by weesec01 Yes. for Sanke and showa, we always hope that the sumi will develop in future with some basic secondary sumi indication eg. for showa, motoguro and sumi on shoulder, sumi development in future is great. How about Kohaku? Let post a pic here for comment: a kohaku and a showa. Sorry, this pic is not very clear.

That is the Kohaku in your avatar, which is a better picture.

[rockman]

Quote: Originally Posted by weesec01 Excellent! description. I will go for good (i) body confirmation, before (ii) quality then (iii) pattern. Koi just like our pet. Most importantly is it must catch your eye...in the first sight. I wouldn't like a good pattern and high quality but skinny looking koi and doesn't grow big!! I wouldn't enjoy it in long term. Another word, quality and pattern only come secondary.

I suppose voting on the most important attribute in terms of showing your koi for competition is one thing, but most of my koi enjoyment comes from bonding with my koi enjoying them swim in my pond...on that basis I would probably vote vote with Dan and choose body conformation first, then I would choose pattern and perhaps last quality. Of course, it would be great to have it all, but I have only been keeping koi for one year, so I am not sure I am experinced enough to make such a committment just yet!

Also, besides appearance, the "friendliness" factor might also be counted, for example how willing to eat out of your hand!

[weesec01]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters That is the Kohaku in your avatar, which is a better picture.

Absolutely right, the first picture posted was 6 months ago at that time this kohaku was measuring at 26cm and now it is 45cm. Latest pic here

[schildkoi]

Quality verses pattern. Great pattern and poor quality or great quality and poor pattern? Answer: Niether. Save your money and get a balance of both in the price range one can afford.

Steve

[dick benbow]

My Teacher in Japan, Toshio Sakai says that the roles of pattern and quality change with the size of the koi.

Therefore if you want to compete in the smaller sizes ( under 24 inches) pattern is the dominant issue. Once over that length quality begins to assume that role of importance

I think what's important to keep in mind in this discussion is that while we have a diversity of opinion on the subject by folks we regard and respect,
ultimately each one of us knows the reality of our budgets, pond size, and importance we place on winning. These variables have to be sorted out within our own mind as it applies to our individual case with what we want to accomplish.

For example I know several long time competitors that either won big and tired of the challenge with Gosanke, or felt they could never compete and have taken on the role of presenting unique kawarigoi as a challenge. A kosui is a recent example. ( a kohaku and shusui cross) People talked more about it than the GC. So there are many nitches that meld budget, pond size and interest to suit the individual.....more so than the black and white issue of pattern verses quality. That's what so great about this hobby. You can take what assets you poessess and fit them to suit your character and interest at the time!

.

[Brutuscz]

Ahh...the quality, pattern conundrum!!! I can't help it...I am trying hard to learn to spot quality. But, pattern still means more to me that it should. My local koi dealer has had an excellent showa all season. 6-8inch range. Imported by Toyoma. Deep beni, really nice shiroji...excellent sumi. A great head pattern ..wonderful skin quality. A thick conformation to boot...maybe a female. Price is very good. So, why is it not in my pond? Excellent Hi on the front 2/3rds and no Hi at all on back 1/3rd. This fish is going to torture me for sure!!! This is how I know pattern is way too important to me. I am actually hoping they sell it so it will stop being a temptation each time I see it!!!!

[dick benbow]

You bring up and excellent point about more than 2 color pattern, Bob......

I think because as we were learning we were taught to make an excellent showa you take an excellent kohaku pattern and overlay it with black in the right places, this creates the problem we have in this sutuation. While initially the advice is not wrong, it creates a fault or weakness in our own thinking.

As we progress in the hobby I would hope we would lean more towards the understanding of dividing the koi into thirds. The head shoulder pattern. The middle, and the tail. Ideally we would want in the case of a showa, the three colors in each area. But balance and pattern also contribute. For example.
Imagine a kohaku with kuchibeni and the last tail pattern that runs flat up to the tail with no white "tail stop". The pattern itself is balanced. Now take a showa with a black button nose and an inazuma black pattern that runs into the tail stop. The last third has a bit of red from the middle section slipping into it's leading edge and startling white in between.

While we would prefer to have a red pattern 2 cm tail stop, the last third area has the needed ingredients to compete. 3 colors. varied and interesting pattern and it's balanced. In other words the pattern is there, it's just not the red we were taught to expect. I think some times it might help for understanding to be color blind. You could see the pattern and not be influenced by the color.

I think I would rather own for my own enjoyment a unique koi that catches your eye with an unconventional pattern and a presence about it, then a "bread and butter" that's techically correct but has no pzazz! (maybe it's what drives Guys over 50 to drive little red sports cars instead of a luxury limo in a black or silver grey.)

and i'm sure the auto makers will continue to make sports cars and limos, just as the breeders will offer the cookie cutter along with the unique.

An old friend put it in perspective one day when following a show, he didn't take GC. "You know,Dick.....This koi gives we joy 363 days of the year when I see it in my back yard everyday. The other 2 days it's at the show is up to the the Judges and the folks viewing it to decide." I think he made a very good point.

[Steve Nguyen]

Dick,
any pix of kosui? just want to see what it looks like.

Steve