Anyone know the true history of the Matsunosuke GinRin fleck?

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR This trait goes back to the foundation stock of Matsunosuke the senior. Toshio tells the story of how he would, as a young boy, sneak out to the monthly carp breeders meeting at the community center and listen from outside the open window to the village breeders talk about what they were doing at the time. This included his father's efforts at the time. At that time, the fish of Niigata carried what was then known as Niigata gin. This was an attractive gin on a scale but very unattractive as general appointment in that it was all over the fish and very hard to congregate. Eventually the southern part of the country came up with more uniform ginrin specimens while most energy was directed towards surpressing the stray Niigata gin in the north. But good is good and this was the same skin that produced great fukurin and thick beni and sumi of depth. So while some were breeding the general trait out of gosanke, Matsunosuke senior used a look of skin and body shape to concentrate the traits, of which one was a genetically linked strip of gin scales going back to the foundation stock with niigata gin. At one point, as the ZNA judging system fixed gosanke standards ( especially kohaku) stray ginrin was considered a distraction and hurt an individual koi in competition somewhat. But the Matsunosuke sanke with the classic body was expected to have a flash or stip of ginrin on tail tube or along the body as it was a tolerated component of a greater 'silky' skin type. Great debates took place around this exception and eventually ZNA came up with a specific number of rows a ginrin must have to be a ginrin. - JR

Thanks for the history lesson JR....

[MikeM]

Here is what JR is talking about.

[kevan]

its a poor quality trait, a reject!

tosho gets away with it as his fish are otherwise such great quality, for anyone else before him with lesser fish, it would have been considered a poor quality gin rin and ridiculed. but as toshio has achived so much in spite of this trait everyone can see the kings cloths.

to me toshio screwed up on this issue, he has also used shiro muji in his bloodline, in my mind another screw up.
it appears toshio likes to play russian rulet with koi genes. on the whole it has paid off but it also it has a way of backfiring. while he bred out the magoi blood effectively, can he breed out the gin rin and shiroji blood as effectively?

i presume with so many seeing the kings cloths regarding the poor gin rin, he no longer has to! even if it does turn out shiro muji!

yes toshio is a master but i believe he is also reckless. improving the gene pool in some areas and damaging it in others.

if you like the effect of a poor gin rin then good for you.

i find it a distraction and avoid them.

[koiczar]

Kevan

Wow! That's some pretty heavy sarcasm. But I think you may need to get a few things corrected!?

Toshio did not invent the "Matsunosuke" GinRin trait - his father did! The quality of those early fish was considered some of the best in all the world - therefore, the line was continued to be bred for that recognizable trait. It's like a trademark that all the world now understands as soon as they see it. If it was so distracting, why do several other breeders still incorporate it into their lines?

Second, have you ever seen a real genetically bred Shiro Muji? The only Shiro Muji I have personally seen are failed kohakus or other varieties that lose their other colors due to poor water quality or genetics. Or maybe you saw a picture of a fish that once was quite beautiful, but due to spawning stressors lost all it's hi!? I knew a breeder once that used just such a fish, but he had photos of it before/after. That fish threw some awesome kohaku! Are you speaking of the Shiro Magoi that was used many generations ago? Please don't confuse apples and oranges here.

You're correct, Toshio does take chances with his breeding. That's why he is where he is today - at the pinnacle of breeding quality stocks of Gosanke!

For whatever reason(s), you seem to have a dislike for the man. That's fine, but go cry in your beer somewhere else. It's not appreciated here.

Mike

Quote: Originally Posted by kevan its a poor quality trait, a reject! tosho gets away with it as his fish are otherwise such great quality, for anyone else before him with lesser fish, it would have been considered a poor quality gin rin and ridiculed. but as toshio has achived so much in spite of this trait everyone can see the kings cloths. to me toshio screwed up on this issue, he has also used shiro muji in his bloodline, in my mind another screw up. it appears toshio likes to play russian rulet with koi genes. on the whole it has paid off but it also it has a way of backfiring. while he bred out the magoi blood effectively, can he breed out the gin rin and shiroji blood as effectively? i presume with so many seeing the kings cloths regarding the poor gin rin, he no longer has to! even if it does turn out shiro muji! yes toshio is a master but i believe he is also reckless. improving the gene pool in some areas and damaging it in others. if you like the effect of a poor gin rin then good for you. i find it a distraction and avoid them.

[kevan]

Hi Mike,

thanks for the reply,

yes this flawed trait can be seen as a trademark of matsunosuke and in turn signifies being linked to a quality breeder, but this does not make it desirable or welcome in itself, in the gene pool, overal beauty or judging stds and i believe quite the opposite.

we have gin rin and non gin rin in shows,
yet most are confused by the matsunosuke koi, its been called gin rin, niigata gin, matsunosuke gin, fukurin (this was a fave for a while as it avoided the gin rin issue and allowed the judges to turn a blind eye)

yet everyone can see it has no cloths...its weak old style gin rin and should be thrown in the gin rin tanks!

toshio DID invent it in the jumbo range that is desirable today, otherwise it is quite likely that any kind of smaller old style weak gin rin koi would likely have largely dissapeared by now. toshio himself made the choice to incorporate weak gin rin in his jumbo bloodline and is a main producer and a beakon light of this confusing non std, whether he sourced it from his father or petsmart is largely irrelevant.

there were often heated rows at shows regarding how to classify such flawed koi, this perfectly illustraits its shortcommings! and when such koi were placed in the gin rin classses they lost! the experienced judges were obviously fools as they couldnt see the kings cloths, right?

how the japanese worked around this issue i would love to know if anyone has ALL the details?

regarding the shiro muji broodstock.
yes the broodstock koi will once have had a beatiful red, i never suggested otherwise! but this is now COMPLETELY gone and breeders have frequently used them including toshio sakai. i find it hard to except this practice!

breeding koi where the hi colour remains fairly stable throught its life and at least to the point where it has not lost ALL its colour should be a long term goal of the breeder, not this russian rulette that equates to breeding expensive race horses where the legs may fall off at any time as the mothers had!

so ok, it was from shock, it was from hard water, yes these things can trigger such an event, yet as we all know it is very rare that such an event effects more than one or two koi, these koi were genetically programed to loose their colour given a variety of triggers.

now is it wise to breed from such time bomb koi? should we be making excuses for such breeders using this practice?

[MikeM]

Kevan, there are aspects of what you say that have merit, but I'd not trounce the breeder who has brought such magnificence to koi. I do not believe Sakai has bred for the purpose of preserving the gin, but has found the gin trait to be linked to the finer skin and deep-layered pigment he is continuously improving. As the fish mature, the gin has less visual effect. I would agree that in some fish the gin is a distraction, but it can also add to the silken shimmer of the koi. In many instances it is a minor matter in the total composition. Personally, I have come to appreciate it as heightening the gorgeousness of a koi when it is evenly spread as if part of the weave of a fabric, like silver thread in a fine brocade. I do not care for Gin Rin koi as a rule... too garish and muddled to my eye. (And, yes, there are a few rare exceptions that draw me to them, but they are rare indeed.)

The use of Shiro Muji oyagoi is another issue. If the practice results in koi that lose their Hi with age, it is a practice to be avoided. There are enough fast bloomers in the tosai tubs. We do not need them disappointing us at age 6. However, I am not aware of Sakai's koi suffering from such premature fading as occurs in some other breeders' stocks. His koi are generally known for their long years of pleasurable viewing. I am sure there are exceptions. If a person acquired one of the exceptions along the way, I am sure it would 'color' their perceptions.

The Sanke I posted above was photographed coming out of the mud after her third season. She has several years to go to reach her peak. By the time she does, the Beni will thicken, the color intensify and the gin will merge with the lustre of the skin. I do not think it will distract, but add a sort of visual depth. I am sure opinions will differ. The perception of beauty is quite personal.

[PapaBear]

...Why don't you tell us what you really think
Personally, I guess I can give you credit for having enough moxy to trash one of the worlds most renowned breeders so openly, but moxy will only get you so far.
Fully mature Koi from these lines are highly sought after for a multitude of reasons, most of which have been pretty well touched on. If they were as lousy as you seem to think I seriously doubt there would be so many top breeders using them for breeding stock.
Youthful Koi can have a multitude of distractions in skin, scales, and pattern. Those same annoying distractions mature into massive frames, luminescent skin and scales, and stunning patterns Koi Kichi get to enjoy for many years, if they have the patience to wait.

[koiczar]

MikeM

Thanks for clearly explaining what I was trying to say before. And, Larry, you are absolutely correct.

Kevan

Obviously, at the shows you are mentioning, they must have taken place a while back. Most ALL judges know the difference and are atuned to what they're looking at. While I will agree that at a young age and smaller size, this can be a distraction, if you ever have the chance to see Sakai's more mature fish when they are being harvested from the mud ponds, then you might understand what we are trying to explain.

Secondly, when breeders use Oyagoi for several years, the stressors brought out from this are not environmental stressors, they are induced by all the energy expended during the exercise. This does not a bad fish make. And, if the breeder continues to use this Oyagoi for subsequent breeding, with a high success level, I doubt that you, or I, or many others, have the level of understanding to see and grasp the depth of what is going on. The man's reputation is preceded by generations of breeding SUCCESSFULLY. I have seen his lesser grade stocks and been able to compare them to other breeders stocks of the supposedly same grade. They don't compare! And as far as I know, I'm not positive in this but I will ask in October, Toshio does not use color enhancing food to market this grade of fish as others do. He doesn't need to.

Mike

[RayJordan]

Well, there are some koi keepers and koi dealers that do not like Toshio Sakai for a variety of reasons. I have always found him to be very generous with his time and teaching on the three occasions I have been to visit him in Isawa.

Regardless if you like him or not, I cannot imagine any knowledgable koi person not giving him his hard earned respect for what he has accomplished breeding some of the very best koi in the world. The number and range of All Japan Show Grand Champions plus the improvement in overall size and quality of beni and sumi are undeniable. IMO

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by RayJordan Well, there are some koi keepers and koi dealers that do not like Toshio Sakai for a variety of reasons. I have always found him to be very generous with his time and teaching on the three occasions I have been to visit him in Isawa. Regardless if you like him or not, I cannot imagine any knowledgable koi person not giving him his hard earned respect for what he has accomplished breeding some of the very best koi in the world. The number and range of All Japan Show Grand Champions plus the improvement in overall size and quality of beni and sumi are undeniable. IMO

I think what Ray had said sums it up nicely. This what a great thread until the debate started with Kevan. I think everyone has a right to their opinion and we should leave it at that.