Anyone know the true history of the Matsunosuke GinRin fleck?

[kevan]

ok ive been trying to find out more about matsunosukes early years and broodstock yet i keep comming across conflicting reports!
here are a few comments taken from toshiyuki sakai that some may like to read out of interest! if anyone else has more info and can quote a source, then id love to read it.

im also still keen to know when the ginrin rule was changed to incorporate the matsunosuke gin? would this be later than the all japan show in 1968?

toshiyuki Sakai(Yamamatsu Koi Farm)

My family was a small farm family that produced a small quantity of rice. We had Nishikigoi, too, but we didn¡¦t do more than keeping Koi fry in the rice paddies. I started working after I graduated from junior high, but I just couldn¡¦t have hopes of growing rice in the rice paddies that we owned at the time. I wanted to pursue my dream. It all started when I leased the rice paddies from my father and turned them into ponds with the proviso that I would pay with the revenue of producing rice. I was set out for rice production of more than a megaton only in Niigata. People thought I was crazy.
The first varieties I bred were Yamabuki Ogon and Aigoromo. Normally, the koromo appears when the Koi grows older, but for breeding Aigoromo, I used Oyagoi in which koromo appears at an early stage. Within 3 years, I succeeded in producing Aigoromo with koromo that appears from the Tosai stage. I also bred Sanke, but about 30 years ago I happened to hear people saying that ¡§Matsunosuke¡¦s Koi don¡¦t grow.¡¨ So I set my mind on producing big Koi. In the meantime, my brother who runs a Koi farm in Yamanashi Prefecture purchased a good female Sanke, so I bred her with my male Koi, and their offspring did grow big. But their bodies were still too slim, so I took a chance and crossbred a 1m 30cm (52-inch) female Magoi with my Sanke. The first offspring had only black spots, but little by little they turned into big and thick Sanke. A few years later, I won the championship at the All Japan Combined Nishikigoi Show. It¡¦s been 20 years since the Matsunosuke Sanke brand was established. I have been putting in lots of effort in quality since then. Especially my son, Toshiaki, has a stubborn artisan spirit, so he feels much for quality. Since his elementary school days, Toshiaki brought home male and female goldfish and mated them, so I assume it was just natural for him to become a Koi breeder. He started working right after graduating from high school. He focuses so much on quality that sometimes I have to remind him to be aware of body conformation.

japan koi online
Yamamatsu Koi Farm- Matsunosuke

Beautiful Nishikigoi is made possible by highly specialized skill, talent and continuous efforts over 20-30 years. Mr. Sakai is one of the representative breeders.
Some of you may be interested in breeding Nishikigoi. Some of you may even be interested in becoming professional breeders. Nishikigoi have standards that are very deep in the Japanese culture. It is important that professional breeders throughout the world adhere to these standards.
The breeders in my articles are representative of Japanese breeders. I have worked with them for many years and I believe this information will help those interested breed better koi.
Matsunosuke - Mr. Toshiyuki Sakai of Yamamatsu Koi Farm
Matsunosuke Sanke is a representative brand of Taisho Sanshoku. Mr. Toshiyuki Sakai at the Yamamatsu Koi Farm and Mr. Toshio Sakai of the Isawa Nishikigoi Center created this bloodline. It was in 1974 when they first bred Matsunosuke Sanke. From that point, the history of the Matsunosuke began.
There had been countless failures and heartbreak until they found the right match in parents. In the 1960's, this Sanke was known for its beauty but it did not grow into a large size. This was very disturbing to the Sakai brothers. It was then they set as their goal the breeding of large koi.
They went everywhere to find potential parents. They were successful in 1974. Since then, they have improved the bloodline over the last 20 years. At last they won Grand Champion in 1994 and 1995.

kevan.

[kevan]

a strange incident perhaps that may interest some is that a couple of years ago i brought some largish SFF tosai kohaku, these featured the gin and skin much like on matsunosuke sanke!
i had never seen this on sakai hiroshima kohaku! and it is still a mystery to me!...i sold them shortly after as i later decided i didnt like the effect but never researched it farther! they came from the koi water barn.

any thoughts?

oddly enough in contrast of all the matsunosuke koi i have had (sanke and kokaku)none have had the gin effect!

kevan.

[MikeM]

I'm getting lost... Is there an issue beyond the question of whether the Matsunosuke gin is bad/good/indifferent?

[kevan]

Hi Mike,

funny enough your simple explaination sums it up perfectly
cheers lol!

[dick benbow]

interesting story kevan, please take into consideration that we're listening to the eldest son in a japanese family tell the way he saw things.

Mike, I stated it earlier in this thread and i'll state it again. I think the Gin adds something special to the look of the koi. I crave it, and have noticed that a certain uniform ( not scattered) allignment seem to indicate a better skin quality as they age. So I'm very partial to that. Like all things koi, there are many different opinions on patterns and looks of koi. Bottom line, in my opinion, if it does something for you than that's the koi you should own.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by kevan Russell, i wholeheartedly apologise, sorry.

Thank you Kevan, I appreciate it.

[JasPR]

what if I like doitsu showa longfins? My bad, JR

The thing about ginrin is it is actually, in a greater sense, a pattern on the scales. To be clear, it is a scale type and not a pattern type. Yet, like a pattern, it will be predictable in that it will tend to show up on certain areas of the body and in certain concentrations in those areas.
When Yamakoshi village and surrounding areas tamed to some degree Niigata gin, they were actually organizing scale types that were 'speckled and widely distributed 'patterns' onto the back for top viewing. This is no different than organizing beni spots all over a white fish into the dorsal area only.
In the case of Matsunosuki sanke, I think it is best to think of ginrin as a linked trait like 'freckles on a red head'. If you want the silk skin and that skin's ability to luster and reflect light so it appears silvery white, then you have to accept that you will likely see ginrin in strips along the tail tube or body.
Kevan is right in that to buy a matsunosuke sanke TO get ginrin is not the point! And I have seen Mat.sanke that have the gin but no fukurin or silk to the skin. That makes no sense? Kinda like buying a porsche key chain but not the car? Or maybe a blank canvas signed by a famous artist?